Tire / wheel brake down - did it ever happen

[Tommy in Tampa]

Hi there.
I just got 8 new tires from Diamond back. I told him I wanted tubes. He told me NO.
Now I was trying to spend money and he said NO. I explained about the wheel and its shape.
He was real nice but at the same time he told me he knew the difference between a tube type and a tubeless wheel. And as long as the wheel was air tight I should not use tubes. The tires were not made for them. But If I bought them somewhere else get tubes made for radial tires.

He challenged me to find anyone that ever had a tire break down from a wheel.

I sorta agree with him. I think most of you that know me know I run the P out of my cars. I turn then hard I stop them quick and I run them as fast as they will go all the time. I have never ran a tube in any Amphicar.

I am looking for a yes or no here. Has anyone ever had or have direct knowledge of an Amphicar wheel / tire breaking down under load. Yes or no!! Please don't theorize or hypnotize about what could possibly happen. Just the facts please.

Do you KNOW that this has happened to Anyone ever ?

Thanks in advance, Tommy in Tampa

 

[SplitPersonality]

Tire / wheel brake down - did it ev...

In the same vein of thinking Tommy, one could have a tire failure with a
tubeless tire on a rim designed for tubeless tires - witness Firestone's
problems with Tread separation. I don't run my Amphi quite as hard as you do, but
you know that I sure give it the devil on Splash Ins. In 12 years, I have yet
to have the very first problem of any kind with any of the 4 tires which are
tubeless radials and were put on in 1991.

Also on the idea of a tire deflating if you hit the bottom, I have hit the
bottom and rocks many times since the lake levels have been down in recent
years in Florida and even at Cypress Gardens where the canal was not deep. They
were nice enough to put a picture in the local paper showing us at Cypress
Gardens using a paddle to free ourselves. So for my money, I'll do as I have
been doing and go tubeless with radials and consider that whatever risk there
is, it must be miniscule based on the number of instances where a tire has
come off an Amphicar rim. Tubeless tires, to my recollection, were becoming
common it seems like about 10 years before radials caught on in America. As
someone pointed out, millions of tubeless tires were put on rims that had been
designed for tube type before tubeless even became common. It is certainly not
a matter of $60 cost to put tubes in that keeps me from thinking of doing
it. There are stories of some tubes creating friction and heat and then
problems and certainly the tubes are one more ingredient in the matter of balancing
tires. My tires were balanced when they were put on and have not been
balanced since and do not show cupping or uneven wear. Somehow, I feel neglected.
Anyway, I agree with the Bill Chapman of Diamondback and he definitely has been
exposed to a lot of stories and situations. Vic



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[Tommy in Tampa]

Thanks Vic, for the response, I will take that as a no.

 

[DavidC]

> Do you KNOW that this has happened to Anyone ever ?

Tommy, no. I don't know of it having happened to an Amphicar. But as I said
I have SEEN it happen to a car with similar suspension, tyres, tyre
pressures, that was being driven hard on a hillclimb course.

My problem with the Diamond Black bloke is he is saying it's never going to
happen - which is just stupid and like saying the Titanic is unsinkable.

The truth is the risk is there but if you have the right sort of lifeboats,
binoculars, keep the speed down and look for icebergs you'll almost
certainly be fine !

There is another option we haven't mentioned - a device called a "rimlock"
as used on 4x4s that does the same job as the tube for tubeless tyres but
I've no experience of them.

When I first had my Amphicar I ran radial tyres without tubes for about
5,000 miles with no problems. It wasn't until I spoke to some of the German
owners and the tech guys at some of the manufacturers that I understood the
issue and for the last 10,000 miles my Amphicar has had tubes fitted.
However the fact your cars haven't got tubes wouldn't stop me riding in them
next time I'm in Florida - the alligators might but not the lack of tubes !

David C

 

[LAH20CAR]

Hey Tommy,

Never had a failure but a couple years ago while in NH with Mike, I got out of the channel in Lake Winnipasake and hit a largesmooth rock so hard that it stopped the car. I thought for sure, its gonna sink but nothing happend, so continued to the ramp, could not find a hole or big dent until I happened to look at the wheel and tire on right side.
I had hit the rock dead on the wheel and had bent the sealing lip back about an inch, still held air--- I still use it as a spare and reminder to stay in marked channels, no matter how friendly the natives are

Oh yea, I had tubes in my radials

Come on up to Ozark, I know where there is a stash of old glass boats with fins

 

[Midwest Amphicar]

I never had a problem running radials with out tubes, but I never ran at 14lbs. When I had My hotrod motor in BW2 top speed was 90. Later Dave the Wave

 

[DavidC]

> I never had a problem running radials with out tubes, but I never ran at
> 14lbs. When I had My hotrod motor in BW2 top speed was 90. Later Dave the
> Wave

Yes 14 is too low - just over 20 seems right depending on the tyre.

An acomplished race driver I know once put Amphicar around a circuit and
spent some time experimenting with tyre pressures. This is what he found :

"The rears were best at over 35 but less than 40. This gave the rear a
combination of a good ride, reasonable grip but more importantly less sudden
lift off overstear ! I found except that it made the steering heavy low 20's
is best for the front. If I had the pressures above 30 the front end was
very light and skittish, understeared dramatically and you could not feel
what the front was doing through the steering. This lack of confidence
caused me to back off once or twice which then made the rear want to
overtake the front."

24 front and 38 rear works for me with 175x13 radials.

David C

 

[amphigill]

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom [amphigill@charter.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 7:19 AM
To: Jerry Preisel
Subject: RE: Contact email (Live Chat)

Jerry, is the following true? Tom:

You ask the right question, but to the wrong guy. He may be able to speak of
Coker tires, but what is his knowledge and assumptions about Amphicar rims?

The Amphi rims do NOT have the retaining bosses on the inner surface of the
rim. Rims designed for tubeless tires DO have these retaining bosses.

The purpose of these bosses is to provide extra support for the tubeless
tire bead, better holding it in place against the rim to ensure no air
leakage. If you use a tubeless tire on an Amphi rim, you are giving up one
level of protection. This is probably not important for normal driving.
Unfortunately, who can guarantee normal driving conditions all the time?
Sooner or later, you will hit a pothole, swerve sharply to avoid something,
or drive over a curb or something. All of these things can stress the tire
bead away from the rim.

Now, can you imagine what happens when the bead moves away from the rim?
Right, a big loss of air pressure. And it's air pressure that holds the tire
bead against the rim. So, the result could be total loss of tire air
pressure, deformation of the tire, and complete destruction of the tire. All
this happens while you are still rolling along, so the tire shreds itself,
the rim may be damaged, and the body and/or suspension might be damaged by
the disintegrating tire pieces.


---- Jerry Preisel <support@coker.com> wrote:

=============
Tom,



You are still not required to run a tube, but if you would feel more
comfortable doing so I would recommend that.

Thanks,


Jerry Preisel



Customer Service Representative
www.coker.com
1-800-251-6336 Ext. 256
Local: 423-265-6368
Fax: 423-756-5607

 

[Tommy in Tampa]

Thanks Everyone, I am gonna run them without tubes. I think it is the way to go for me. Thanks Tommy in Tampa

 

[Ed Price]

_____

From: amphigill [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 3:25 AM
To: edprice@cox.net
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20174] Re: Tire / wheel brake
down - did it ever happen


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom [amphigill@charter.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 7:19 AM
To: Jerry Preisel
Subject: RE: Contact email (Live Chat)

Jerry, is the following true? Tom:

You ask the right question, but to the wrong guy. He may be able to speak of

Coker tires, but what is his knowledge and assumptions about Amphicar rims?



---- Jerry Preisel wrote:

=============
Tom,



You are still not required to run a tube, but if you would feel more
comfortable doing so I would recommend that.

Thanks,


Jerry Preisel


Well, I'm disappointed. Sounds like Jerry sidestepped the question by
answering what you didn't ask him. The question wasn't if you were
"required" to use tubes, the question was whether Coker tubeless tires
should be used with non-beaded rims without a tube.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA USA
61 Rust Guppy