Strange Brake Failure

[Ron Green]

Go into the area you want to post (general discussion, tech guides, etc) and there is a new thread button at the upper left.

I believe that Gord Souter may also sell mufflers?

 

[mike_israel]

Hi All,

Just catching up on messages to the forum.* The last month has been the month from he**.* I have not even had my Amphi in the water once this season. :-(

Anyway, regarding brake bleeding.* This came up a long* time ago and there is lots of info in the archives.

Years back* I recommended the Motive Products Power Bleeder which works amazingly well.* Amphipoda and others also purchased it and gave glowing reviews.* This thing makes bleeding brakes fun, and the job is done in minutes with one person.* I have purchased adapters for my other vehicles and it works equally well on all of them.* I got mine here although lots of places sell them:
http://www.partsbmw.com/showproducts.asp?MainCat=Car%20Care%20and%20Tools&SubCat1=Tools&CookieID=B2VI843XX

The BMW cap provided at the above link fits the Amphi fluid resevoir perfectly.* For $50, it will probably be one of the best tools you ever buy.* Don't waste your money on those vacuum units that attach to the brake bleeders (been there done that).

Mike I.

 

[Tedredamphi]

Mike,
Do you have a part number for the adapter that you bought? Motive Products Website lists several. European 1100, Black Label european 1109, Classic British 1110, to name a few. The adapters look to be about $20 on top of the $50 price for the reservoir tool.
Ted Matthews

 

[PeterP]

If anyone is planning on bleeding their brakes in the near future, and is willing to take some pictures, I will do a write up on it for the how-to section.

 

[Tedredamphi]

Looks like this is the Motive Products Bleeder to order - probably same one the Bimmer place sells.
Ted
Product SKU Description Price European BleederIn Stock0100Fits most European built cars$49.95

Works on most European cars, including Alfa Romeo, Audi, BMW, Fiat, Mercedes, Peugeot, Porsche, Renault, SAAB, Volkswagen, Volvo, and all other cars with 45mm threaded hydraulic fluid reservoir caps (Adapter 1100). All bleeders come with a full 1 year warranty.

 

[LSolheim]

Take a look at THIS
<http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MVP%2D0100&N
=700+400590+4294820435+4294812427+4294812322+115&autoview=sku> part, Ted.
I purchased one on Mike's recommendation and agree - it's possibly the BEST
money you can spend!



--Larry



From: Tedredamphi [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:08 AM
To: lrsnpark@gmail.com
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20133] Re: Strange Brake Failure



Mike,
Do you have a part number for the adapter that you bought? Motive Products
Website lists several. European 1100, Black Label european 1109, Classic
British 1110, to name a few. The adapters look to be about $20 on top of the
$50 price for the reservoir tool.
Ted Matthews

 

[mike_israel]

The link I listed*provides the BMW (Amphicar) cap along with the unit.** I can tell you that it is the same cap as on any 1985-1986 BMW 5-series.

 

[Ed Price]

_____

From: azpaul50 [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 4:54 PM
To: edprice@cox.net
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20133] Re: Strange Brake Failure


Seeing as how EVERYONE will be having a grand time this weekend... and I
don't even have my Amphi to look at, and it is 107 outside... and did I
mention (we) Arizonans regularly bury ourselves in sand to our necks and
withstand ant attacks for hours (an old west tradition), I thought I'd
comment about SOMETHING!! The ant thing impresses the Californians!
<http://www.amphicar770.com/amphicarforum/images/smilies/002.gif>



So that's why you Zonies get a spotted tan when you visit our beaches!
Actually, judging by climate, I'm a lot closer to you than the beaches; it
was 97 here today, and I'm only 20 miles from the ocean.

Ed Price
El Cajon, CA USA
61 Rust Guppy

 

[CapnJohn]

... there is only 1 that may work it is of a VW bus,, all othere have a smaller diamiter piston and should not be used,
the Bus one has a smaller dia rod lenght and Amphis must be ground down.. not a good thing..

You can use the VW bus cylinder and you don't have to modify the Amphi rod at all. Drill out the new master cylinder piston to fit the unique Amphi rod instead of making the Amphi rod fit the cylinder. I have done this for years. Again, I get the cylinders from BugHaus.

Remove the piston from the old master and remove the new one from the cyl too. Be sure to use a drill that matches the old piston hole's diameter (Sorry I don't recall the exact size .375"?). Use a drill press so you get the hole straight. Set your press so the depth is exact too. If it's crooked, the rod will stick, if it's too deep you will destroy it or not have enough pedal. Your original rod does not need to be modified at all. It's easy if you just pay attention and take your time.

BLEEDING BRAKES - I made a power bleeder for $4. I found a cap of a jar of pickles (bread and butter, mmmmm!) that fit the Amphi resevoir perfectly. I added an air nipple and small tubing to it and a $4 air blower (pencil type, that you twist to open) to the other end You can open it SLIGHTLY until you have only a wisp of pressure in the resevoir. Then I go around and bleed each wheel. The whole effort takes me about 10 minutes, alone.

The "Mighty-Vac" types will not work, There is a valve in the master that won't allow you to "pull" the fluid through. My "El Cheap-O" bleeder "pushes" it through. Just keep an eye on you fluid levels.

A BLEEDING TIP - When pumping up your brakes, push down firmly and SLOWLY then release, don't pump them rapidly or you can froth the fluid trapping more air. After each time you open the bleeder, allow your resevoir to recover for about 15+ seconds before pumping them up for the next burp. This will allow the fluid to fill the master and the air bubbles to converge for a professional air free brake system.

 

[LSolheim]

Actually, I split the difference, John, taking the piston and rod boot from
the existing MC and installed them (after swapping the piston seal for the
new one) in/on the new MC. No drilling or turning. Interesting that the VW
piston is actually longer than the Amphi piston, although the spring is the
same. Less throw on the VW pedal, I guess.



The Amphi MC was not shiny perfect, but there were no obvious pits or flaws
in the bore . I would probably have accepted it in an "after hone"
inspection. Nothing obvious about the seals, either. The (should have
been) purple fluid was a bit funky and black, tho. But I guess these
results that should be expected as the problem was EXTREMELY intermittent
and not reproducible on demand.



Sorry to hear about your new round of medical issues. It has been a tough
12 months, or so. Know that Nancy & my thoughts are with you.



--Larry



From: CapnJohn [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 9:45 AM
To: lrsnpark@gmail.com
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20133] Re: Strange Brake Failure



Quote:


Originally Posted by Canadian four amphs View Post
<http://www.amphicar770.com/amphicarforum/images/techtwo/buttons/viewpost.gi
f>

... there is only 1 that may work it is of a VW bus,, all othere have a
smaller diamiter piston and should not be used,
the Bus one has a smaller dia rod lenght and Amphis must be ground down..
not a good thing..

You can use the VW bus cylinder and you don't have to modify the Amphi rod
at all. Drill out the new master cylinder piston to fit the unique Amphi rod
instead of making the Amphi rod fit the cylinder. I have done this several
times. Again, I get the cylinders from BugHaus.

Remove the piston from the old master and remove the new one from the cyl
too. Be sure to use a drill that matches the old piston hole's diameter
(Sorry I don't recall the exact size .375"?). Use a drill press so you get
the hole straight. Set your press so the depth is exact too. If it's
crooked, the rod will stick, if it's too deep you will destroy it or not
have enough pedal. Your original rod length should not need to be changed.
It's easy if you just pay attention and take your time.

 

[gzink]

David,
Do you use Dot 3 or Dot 5 synthetic brake fluid and does it matter? What about non-synthetic, Dot 3?


--- On Sun, 8/31/08, DavidC <> wrote:

> From: DavidC <>
> Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20133] Re: Strange Brake Failure
> To: g_zink_us@yahoo.com
> Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 8:38 PM
> Quote:
>
>
>
>
> > Do you know the bore of the original Amphicar
> master David?
>
>
>
>
> Pretty sure it's 22mm but best if you measure it -
> especially if you want a
> measurement in those fractional inch thingys !
>
> David C
>
>
>

 

[DavidC]

Greg, I think there is only one DOT standard for silicone brake fluid (5.1?) the brand use is automec and it's a pinky purple colour. Ebay item 230263081688

I hate ordinary brake fluid because it offers no advantage over silicon, in particular it damages the paintwork if spilt and it has to be changed every two years.

David C

----- Original Message -----
From: gzink
To: david@manbus.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 2:55 AM
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20133] Re: Strange Brake Failure


David,
Do you use Dot 3 or Dot 5 synthetic brake fluid and does it matter? What about non-synthetic, Dot 3?


--- On Sun, 8/31/08, DavidC <> wrote:



Quote:
> From: DavidC <>
> Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20133] Re: Strange Brake Failure
> To: g_zink_us@yahoo.com
> Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 8:38 PM
> Quote:
>
>
>
>
> > Do you know the bore of the original Amphicar
> master David?
>
>
>
>
> Pretty sure it's 22mm but best if you measure it -
> especially if you want a
> measurement in those fractional inch thingys !
>
> David C
>
>
>

 

[Tedredamphi]

Here is a link to a good discussion of Dot 3, Dot 4, vs Dot 5. Dot 5 has its problems too!
Tech Tip: Brake fluid debate

 

[CapnJohn]

David,
Do you use Dot 3 or Dot 5 synthetic brake fluid and does it matter? What about non-synthetic, Dot 3?

I also have used DOT5 synthetic (purple in color) in my car. You can use either one, but you CAN NOT mix them. If you change over the entire system must be flushed out (denatured alcohol works well) and all seals replaced. The can not be any traces of DOT3 left because DOT5 and DOT3 do not mix.

The are 2 sides to either type, but I feel that DOT5 offers better performance for an Amphicar. When you are putting very high end paint on a car like I do (paint materials alone are about $2500), you don't want to take any chances on damage to the finish.

The DOT5 is less hygroscopic than DOT3 and that is the real advantage. You have less water absorbed into the fluid to cause rust and corrosion.

 

[DavidC]

> You can use either one, but you CAN NOT mix them. If you change over the
> entire system must be flushed out (denatured alcohol works well) and all
> seals replaced. The can not be any traces of > DOT3 left because DOT5 and
> DOT3 do not mix.

John, actually you can mix them (ie have them in the same system) they work
together fine but you don't want to do that as you loose all the benefits of
silicon if there is any of the old DOT3 stuff in there.

I don't like flushing fluids, you are adding something foreign, what I
always do is dismantle and clean the wheel cylinders and master cylinders
and then assemble them using silicon fluid to lubricate.

Either replace the brake lines or clean then with air. Always replace the
flexibles front and back - cheap and easy and you can be sure it's only
silicone in there.

Main silicone supplier in the UK is Automec but I think the product actually
comes from the States. More info here:

http://www.automec.co.uk/pdf_files/brakefluid_answer.pdf

Click on the "press page" bit.


David C

 

[CapnJohn]

John, actually you can mix them (ie have them in the same system) they work together fine but you don't want to do that as you loose all the benefits of silicon if there is any of the old DOT3 stuff in there.

I have to respectfully disagree. I have had to rebuild 2 different systems because they were mixed in small amounts. It will coagulate and create BIG problems over time. You may be thinking of DOT 5.1 (you mentioned it earlier) and not DOT5. Confusing? Yes it is!

DOT5.1 is a relatively new brake fluid that is causing no end of confusion amongst mechanics. The 5.1 designation could lead one to believe that it's a modification of silicone-based DOT 5 brake fluid. Calling it 4.1 or 6 might have been more appropriate since it's a glycol-based fluid like the DOT 3 and 4 types, not silicone-based like DOT 5 fluid.

I hope this clarifies it. You may be able to mix DOT5.1 and DOT3 as they both are glycol based, that I can't say for sure but Again, you can not mix DOT5 and DOT3! (DOT5 is silicone based and DOT3 is glycol based)

 

[mike_israel]

Lots of good info out there ...

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/cows-brakefluid.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_5

 

[DavidC]

>> John, actually you can mix them (ie have them in the same system) they work together fine but you don't want to do that as you loose all the benefits of silicon if there is any of the old DOT3 stuff in there.

> I have to respectfully disagree. I have had to rebuild 2 different systems because they were mixed in small amounts. It will coagulate and create BIG problems over time.

Nope John the fluids mix fine, the problem is crud in the original system reacts and causes the gloop you mention, see below.

However your general advice not to mix them is right, best to strip the system and rebuild with just silicone. For balance as I've mentioned the advantages, there are 3 minor disadvantages of silicone:
1. It costs a bit more.
2. It's a bit harder to bleed - it "holds on" to any air bubbles.
3. The brake pedal feels slightly different, a bit bouncier.


From www.american-auto-club.co.uk

Brake system contamination
The single most common brake system failure caused by a contaminant is swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due to the introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power steering fluid, mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major damage. Flushing with mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system failure in a short time. I suspect this is what has happened when some BMW owners changed to DOT 5 (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem). Flushing with alcohol also causes problems. BMW brake systems should be flushed only with DOT 3 or 4.

If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the silicone will latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component deterioration and create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and eventually plug up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have already changed to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change back. Silicone is very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of your system. Just change the fluid regularly. For those who race using silicone fluid, I recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each racing session to insure that there is no water in the calipers.

 

[jfriese]

Hi John & Dave,

Call me lazy, but I drained and switched both my cars to DOT 5 two years ago and haven't had any problems. I didn't change the seals or flush the system. The only thing I noticed was that when bleeding the system I was unable to get rid of what appeared to be some tiny air bubbles. I decided that the tiny bubbles were actually small amounts of DOT 3 left in the lines. I figured that such a tiny amount wouldn't be able to absorb water since there weren't any bubbles in the jar so moisture wouldn't be able to get to what was left of the DOT 3 anyway. I have a solid pedal with both cars. Although I suppose you guys are technically right about getting all the old stuff out, so far I've had no problems at all with either of the cars brake systems and I don't have to worry about a leak destroying the paint.

John Friese
67White
67 Red

 

[Midwest Amphicar]

I asked our Club editor to get permission to run a column that was in Old Cars Weekly. The US Army tested some equipment that was in water. Then they cut in half the parts. Dot 3 looked like rusted crap. All out Dot % looked perfect. Then they mixed with no changing or cleaning and it looked very good. Later Dave the Wave