To glue or to weld

A

amphiguru

Guest
Professional welding of steel panels is the only secure method to
repair the Amphicar in its original design.

Let's look at the following concepts and experiences: (1)
coefficient of expansion, (2) passive lifetime of product, (3)
active lifetime of product, (4) real world examples.

Coefficient of expansion
The movement of heat into and out of steel is not compatible with a
resin product. Steel heats and cools much more rapidly. In time,
the "expansion friction" will cause separation. Think of the 150 to
200 degree inside engine compartment temperatures on one side, and
60 degree lake water on the other. Throw in cold wave water, road
rain, and years of launching, and you see the picture.

Passive lifetime
Organic new products made of rubber, plastic, cloth and wood last
much longer than those in an active lifetime. If new old stock
organics were stored in nitrogen gas, they would approach original,
new service life. Obviously, the best we can hope for are parts
that are sealed in plastic bags in a dark cool area with 50%
humidity.

Active lifetime
As we use our Amphicars, the organic parts: propellers, lenses,
seals, mounts, hoses tires, etc., are exposed to physical movement
within a world filled with ultraviolet light, constantly changing
temperature extremes, engine oil, hypoid gear oil, brake fluid, anti-
freeze, and the normal oxidation from oxygen and ozone in our
atmosphere.

Real world examples
Forget about all this chemical mumbo jumbo. What we all care about
are the parts and body work on our cars. So, let's look at some
examples.

1. Taillight lens - Over time, the red color bleaches from dark red
to pink. The resin itself developes "haze cracks". Ultimately, the
lens shatters from the slightest touch.

2. Propellers - Hold an old but good working propeller up to the
sunlight. Sooner or later, you will see the same "haze cracks".
Eventually, the "active lifetime" is exceeded and the propeller
fails with one blade breaking off.

3. Original Amphicar bilge coatings - The constant heat cycling of
cold lake water mixed with hot oils, residual anti-freeze, etc.,
sooner or later "lifts" the original, soft epoxy coating off the
metal floor. Each car is different due to usage. However, you will
never see actual steel parts like fenders "lift off" bodies, or
brackets. the engine metals don't separate. Only where they meet
gaskets, i.e., organic parts, do they develope leaks and failures.

4. Oil cooler hoses - When new, they are flexible, pliable, and
absorb the movement of the engine on its mounts. About six years
ago, the "active lifetime" of originally installed hoses produced a
failure rate of epic proportions. Almost daily the phone calls were
the same, "My hose broke, spraying oil on my engine and convertible
top. What happened?" The organics of the hose were as brittle as
glass. Since the oil cooler doesn't move and the engine does, the
rock hard hoses split open. Again it's the repeated hot/cold
cycling of the oil in an organic hose.

5. Fan belts - Old belts are a disaster. To see how fragile they
become, fold that old spare belt over backwards on itself. It will
split almost in two pieces.

6. Shock absorbers - Over time, the internal rubber extension stops
turn to a gel inside the shock tubes. Then the shocks hang too low,
causing the drive shafts to rub the tunnels when the wheels hang
down in the water.

The real question which needs a reliable answer is: How many active
hot/cold, etc. cycles can these glues take before separation
occurs? Then it's time to re-glue. So, from my experience, I'll
stay with steel.

Hugh

P.S. Ever notice the warning label of the use of those plastic, TV
dinner trays? You get only ONE active trip from freezer to boiling
hot. GOOD LUCK!
 
A

a_colo_native

Guest
Hugh,

Finally someone else who understands what I have been saying to a
lot of deaf ears! It's physics, you can't change it. If you want to
not just feel safe, but actually BE safe in your car on the water,
stitch weld all panels properly. NO adhesive will never come close to
the safety and life of a properly done stitch weld. I, for one will
not swim in an Amphi if I know there are glued panels installed.

Folks, you may not want to listen to me, but at least listen to
Hugh's message. Is it really worth the small amount of $ saved to put
your passengers and you in danger? I hope that nobody has that
inevitable glued seam failure, but I know that it will happen
eventually (just like the oil lines Hugh mentioned). I pray that
nobody gets hurt or worse when it does ...

I don't want to upset or alienate anyone as this is not a personal
issue. I am passionate about improperly engineered parts that have a
great potential to cause injury or worse. It is the customer and
vendor who needs to understand not only that the part "looks" good,
but (much more importantly) that they perform properly and safely. I
am only trying to educate those who will listen. Just ask Firestone
and Ford about poorly engineered parts.

Thanks Hugh for the insightful posting!

John Bevins
Rocky Mountain Amphicar
 
M

Mike Israel

Guest
Re: Re: To glue or to weld

John,

I do not think you need worrying about offending
anyone. The debate is a legitimate and honest one.

Given the choices at the moment I would go with a good
TIG weld. Surprisingly, few in the Amphi community
are using TIGs although this is the choice of most
high end shops these days (as well as Monster Garage,
etc.). If you align two pieces of metal just right,
you can essentially fuse them together with a TIG
without even adding any rod metal.

I do believe the technology of adhesives will continue
to advance. This is why the discussion is a valid
one. Some day, just not sure when, I do think a
chemical solution will be the clearly prefered and
superior method. Some folks think that time is now,
others in the future, othere never. Time will tell.

Mike I.

--- a_colo_native <colo_frontrange@netzero.net> wrote:

> Hugh,
>
> Finally someone else who understands what I have
> been saying to a
> lot of deaf ears! It's physics, you can't change it.
> If you want to
> not just feel safe, but actually BE safe in your car
> on the water,
> stitch weld all panels properly. NO adhesive will
> never come close to
> the safety and life of a properly done stitch weld.
> I, for one will
> not swim in an Amphi if I know there are glued
> panels installed.
>
> Folks, you may not want to listen to me, but at
> least listen to
> Hugh's message. Is it really worth the small amount
> of $ saved to put
> your passengers and you in danger? I hope that
> nobody has that
> inevitable glued seam failure, but I know that it
> will happen
> eventually (just like the oil lines Hugh mentioned).
> I pray that
> nobody gets hurt or worse when it does ...
>
> I don't want to upset or alienate anyone as this
> is not a personal
> issue. I am passionate about improperly engineered
> parts that have a
> great potential to cause injury or worse. It is the
> customer and
> vendor who needs to understand not only that the
> part "looks" good,
> but (much more importantly) that they perform
> properly and safely. I
> am only trying to educate those who will listen.
> Just ask Firestone
> and Ford about poorly engineered parts.
>
> Thanks Hugh for the insightful posting!
>
> John Bevins
> Rocky Mountain Amphicar
>
>
>
 
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