This starter is not right!

I can confirm the difficulty of replacing a starter with engine in. Man is that a hard job. Well, now that I removed the old one, which is being replaced because the electrical terminal has shorted out and is loose, I struggle to install the new one. That bottom bolt takes some effort. Anyway, trying to start it, did I mention I was replacing an accelerator cable and had to remove the seats and floors, anyway the starter is grinding badly on the flywheel when I crank. No, it can't be, I have to take that damn thing back out again. OK, so I got it out and started to compare old and new. This is where the interesting part is. They are indeed different, although they appear the same, the new one has the drive about 1/8 inch closer to the body in the relaxed position. Now I can see that there is a difference. I got this 16121 from Autozone and ordered it for a 1300cc 1967 Spit, I think. They are all the same so I thought. Since this has to go back, what did I do with that receipt, I wanted to know if anyone else has ever heard of this problem, and what the sure application is to get the right one. I will post the resolution to this after I find out what went wrong.
 

mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
Mark,

Check the archives and you will find that the correct answer is to toss that Lucas junk in the trash, go to http://www.britishstarters.com/ and order a modern gear reduction starter. It pops right in, draws less power, starts better, and will last the life of your Amphi.

Best Regards,

Mike
 

azpaul50

Member
I put in a 16121 from Auto Zone in and it works just fine but the first one they sent was bad and completely dead. The second one worked fine and now continues to work like a champ. The bad news was that I did it all for nothing as the battery I had was failing under load (sometimes). It was in the car when I got it last May. That bottom bolt is no fun, I'll give you that, for sure! !$%Grrrr!!!!



To: azpaul50@hotmail.com
Subject: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20354] This starter is not right!
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:33:10 -0500
From:




I can confirm the difficulty of replacing a starter with engine in. Man is that a hard job. Well, now that I removed the old one, which is being replaced because the electrical terminal has shorted out and is loose, I struggle to install the new one. That bottom bolt takes some effort. Anyway, trying to start it, did I mention I was replacing an accelerator cable and had to remove the seats and floors, anyway the starter is grinding badly on the flywheel when I crank. No, it can't be, I have to take that damn thing back out again. OK, so I got it out and started to compare old and new. This is where the interesting part is. They are indeed different, although they appear the same, the new one has the drive about 1/8 inch closer to the body in the relaxed position. Now I can see that there is a difference. I got this 16121 from Autozone and ordered it for a 1300cc 1967 Spit, I think. They are all the same so I thought. Since this has to go back, what did I do with that receipt, I wanted to know if anyone else has ever heard of this problem, and what the sure application is to get the right one. I will post the resolution to this after I find out what went wrong.



_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Life without walls.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009
 

MAE

Amphicar Expert
I get all my starters from Autozone. They all work just fine Mark and the best part is they are guaranteed for life. When one goes bad just take it back and they replace it. They should have you in their computer which will probably work in case of a list reciept.
 

Canadian four amphs

Amphicar Expert
I have found with rebuilt starters ,they do #$%^things,
I too had that happen but engine was on bench,, no problem..
I did take the defective one apart and found they installed a exra washer behind bendix causing problem.
I now stock only new starters,
GORD SOUTER.
 
I appreciate the replys, that is what is nice about this forum. I did see the posts about the gear reduction starters, very nice but a bit pricey. Mike is right about Autozone and the lifetime warranty, I am sure I will get satisfaction as I know people in Memphis HQ. The part is nice and does work, it is just that it will not disengage. Talk about a really bad grinding noise, that is one that sounds expensive. It is a special order part, so comparison must wait until a new one can be sent to the store. And while I have the floor out, which does make starter job easier, I see other stuff needing attention. My can of worms open, at least it is raining not snowing. Mark now back in Michigan from Wisconsin and Tennessee and Michigan.
 

Midwest Amphicar

Worlds Largest Amphicar Destination
When Mike Isreal sent Me the high torque starter was the last time I put in an original. I have a shelf full of look like new JUNK starters. Pricey? Doing it three times, back and forth to store, chiropractor ............And its not just Auto Zone. They come bad from California, Napa, Car Quest................... Later Dave the made it to river Friday Wave.
 
S

SplitPersonality

Guest
On the subject of high torque starters and rebuilts, etc. I personally have
had good luck with rebuilts - sometimes the supposed rebuilts were actually
brand new. However, with the Amphi starters, I feel a bit left out, as my
presumably original starter has never given me a moment's trouble and spins the
engine over just fine. The only starting problem which occasionally bothers
me is when the engine is hot. Gord or others have said I should adjust the
timing. However, it has never failed to start after a little playing around and
a it of verbal abuse under my breath. The engine runs so well, that I am
reluctant to touch the timing. Vic Nelson with the "Split Personality"


In a message dated 3/8/2009 2:23:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

When Mike Isreal sent Me the high torque starter was the last time I put in
an original. I have a shelf full of look like new JUNK starters. Pricey?
Doing it three times, back and forth to store, chiropractor ............And its
not just Auto Zone. They come bad from California, Napa, Car
Quest................... Later Dave the made it to river Friday Wave.





**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
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%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
 

Ed Price

Member
Vic:

Hot starting problems are usually caused by the carb or fuel line getting
hot. Vapor lock, and/or fuel boiling from the float bowl. Amphi compounds
this problem by routing the fuel line around half of the block, right in the
fan's hot air, and having the carb sit on top of a 1-piece intake/exhaust
manifold.

I would look at insulating the fuel line, using a thick heat insulator
between the carb and the manifold, and maybe using a heat shield to keep
radiated heat off the carb (from manifold, muffler and exhaust pipe).

Some owners have mentioned using a heat shield to protect the coil from
engine radiation. That might help too.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA USA
WB6WSN
61 Rust Guppy
1983 Toyota Celica
1987 MB 420SEL






_____

From: SplitPersonality [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 5:23 AM
To: edprice@cox.net
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20354] Re: This starter is not
right!


On the subject of high torque starters and rebuilts, etc. I personally have
had good luck with rebuilts - sometimes the supposed rebuilts were actually
brand new. However, with the Amphi starters, I feel a bit left out, as my
presumably original starter has never given me a moment's trouble and spins
the
engine over just fine. The only starting problem which occasionally bothers
me is when the engine is hot. Gord or others have said I should adjust the
timing. However, it has never failed to start after a little playing around
and
a it of verbal abuse under my breath. The engine runs so well, that I am
reluctant to touch the timing. Vic Nelson with the "Split Personality"


In a message dated 3/8/2009 2:23:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

When Mike Isreal sent Me the high torque starter was the last time I put in
an original. I have a shelf full of look like new JUNK starters. Pricey?
Doing it three times, back and forth to store, chiropractor ............And
its
not just Auto Zone. They come bad from California, Napa, Car
Quest................... Later Dave the made it to river Friday Wave.





**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126...68072%26hmpgID
<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219957551x1201325337/aol?redir=htt
p:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID>

%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
 
S

SplitPersonality

Guest
Ed -

You may well be right about the fuel line getting too hot. However, I have
had a lot of experience with Vapor Lock ever since I first experienced it in
1974 when the problem with one vehicle practically drove me crazy. I finally
solved that problem in vehicles where that was a problem by installing an in
line electric pump to turn on in 2 situations - to prime the carburetor
initially to save wear and tear on the starter and to overcome vapor lock should
it occur. ( In my 1948 Ford Woodie, I have such a pump and even after sitting
for weeks, it usually starts in less than 5 seconds. This has nothing to do
with Vapor Lock in that case, of course, but to illustrate how worthwhile it
is to prime the carburetor prior to hitting the starter button. ) However,
ever since I had a fuel problem in Celina now almost 10 years ago, I have used
a small low pressure electric fuel pump full time which is located right
beneath the fuel tank and therefore doubt that that is the problem in this
instance. I still use the electric cut-off switch, but otherwise the fuel is pushed
from the tank from the moment I turn on the ignition key. Vic with the
1967 "Split Personality"



In a message dated 3/9/2009 10:51:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

Vic:

Hot starting problems are usually caused by the carb or fuel line getting
hot. Vapor lock, and/or fuel boiling from the float bowl. Amphi compounds
this problem by routing the fuel line around half of the block, right in the
fan's hot air, and having the carb sit on top of a 1-piece intake/exhaust
manifold.

I would look at insulating the fuel line, using a thick heat insulator
between the carb and the manifold, and maybe using a heat shield to keep
radiated heat off the carb (from manifold, muffler and exhaust pipe).

Some owners have mentioned using a heat shield to protect the coil from
engine radiation. That might help too.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA USA
WB6WSN
61 Rust Guppy
1983 Toyota Celica
1987 MB 420SEL






_____

From: SplitPersonality [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 5:23 AM
To: edprice@cox.net
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20354] Re: This starter is not
right!


On the subject of high torque starters and rebuilts, etc. I personally have
had good luck with rebuilts - sometimes the supposed rebuilts were actually
brand new. However, with the Amphi starters, I feel a bit left out, as my
presumably original starter has never given me a moment's trouble and spins
the
engine over just fine. The only starting problem which occasionally bothers
me is when the engine is hot. Gord or others have said I should adjust the
timing. However, it has never failed to start after a little playing around
and
a it of verbal abuse under my breath. The engine runs so well, that I am
reluctant to touch the timing. Vic Nelson with the "Split Personality"


In a message dated 3/8/2009 2:23:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

When Mike Isreal sent Me the high torque starter was the last time I put in
an original. I have a shelf full of look like new JUNK starters. Pricey?
Doing it three times, back and forth to store, chiropractor ............And
its
not just Auto Zone. They come bad from California, Napa, Car
Quest................... Later Dave the made it to river Friday Wave.





**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(_http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126...68072%26hmpgID_
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126...68072&hmpgID)
<_http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126.../aol?redir=htt_
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219957551x1201325337/aol?redir=htt)
p:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.as px%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID>

%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)





**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
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%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
 
OK, Back to starters.

Here is what I have learned over the past couple of days. Autozone gets their 16121 starters from MPA (Motorcar Parts America), and I have gotten 2 of them this week with 2 washer shims on the end - both wrong and will not work.

Advance Auto parts gets their starters from World Wide Auto (once called Remy of Delco-Remy fame) who sells the correct version with one washer shim, but under the same part number 16121 as Autozone. Right part, but currently on backorder.

Gordons website shows a picture of the 2 washer version, but they stock the correct one washer version (I called to ask). They know about this and confirm that 2 washers is a bad thing to have.

I have learned more, but am still without a starter. Good thing I am not in a hurry as price is an issue and it is easy to overpay for this part. Yes, I still have the old one. I will post a resolution to complete this thread once the correct unit can be located and successfully installed.
 

Midwest Amphicar

Worlds Largest Amphicar Destination
I think I have an excellent (junk) starter. The bendix is the issue. You pay shipping (any mugs left?) I will mail it out. That should be cost effective. Of course You have to switch your bendix. Let me know and I will bench test it again. Later Dave
 
R

rpung

Guest
I just purchsed a starter from Walters Rebuilders in St. Paul MN. 651-224-2287. Not a rebuilt but new. They are good guys to deal with and will stand behind their starters and generators.
 

Tedredamphi

Platinum Subscriber
Check out this ebay auction #220368043919. I'm not sure, but it might be the high torque gear reduction starter that was mentioned earlier in this thread.
Ted
 

Midwest Amphicar

Worlds Largest Amphicar Destination
No. I own one of those. Its design is a bit different and hull hits. I think it would work if hull is massaged with hammer. Which I will do when I go 1300. Later Dave soon to be above freezing here Wave
 

jfriese

Active Member
Dave,

Don't bother damaging the hull just to fit that geared starter. I've used the original starters (one had a bendix replaced) with my 1300 engines for 7 years now and they work fine. If need be, I have a local rebuilder who could fix them if they should act up but they have been fine.

John Friese
67 White
67 Red
 

Midwest Amphicar

Worlds Largest Amphicar Destination
I would not call it damaging. I would call it modifying or customizing. Duesenbergs with Dietrich bodies....Amphicars with Dave the Waves modifications. Hmmmm........... All Classics!!!!!! Everyone has one or two cars and if luck works all is well. Easy to make an opinion on one car. I. E. "best car I ever owned" or "Worst car I ever owned" Cars come here because they need work. Some starters are "vunderbar". When they go bad they suck and when replaced with replacements from around the World they suck and blow. If I have to supply starter it will NEVER be original type. If You supply I will be willing to do it over and over and over. All at over time plus wages. Later Dave the full of starter aggravation woes and experience Wave
 
S

SplitPersonality

Guest
As I have said previously, I feel left out since my original starter has
always performed flawlessly. What am I doing wrong to miss out on some of this
starter fun ? To reduce your frustration, come on down south where we are
currently suffering through with days in the low 80's and nights in the mid
60's.. Come join us in 2 weeks at Lake Dora and sample our sunshine and
Southern Hospitality for yourselves. Maybe your starters prefer warm weather too.
Capt. Splash


In a message dated 3/14/2009 8:40:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

I would not call it damaging. I would call it modifying or customizing.
Duesenbergs with Dietrich bodies....Amphicars with Dave the Waves modifications.
Hmmmm........... All Classics!!!!!! Everyone has one or two cars and if luck
works all is well. Easy to make an opinion on one car. I. E. "best car I ever
owned" or "Worst car I ever owned" Cars come here because they need work.
Some starters are "vunderbar". When they go bad they suck and when replaced
with replacements from around the World they suck and blow. If I have to supply
starter it will NEVER be original type. If You supply I will be willing to do
it over and over and over. All at over time plus wages. Later Dave the full
of starter aggravation woes and experience Wave





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steps!
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%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
 
Conclusion:

Autozone has alerted their supplier about the starters with the "extra" washer, and they have fixed the problem. They shipped a good unit to me and it is installed and working properly.

There may be some old stock still out there, so be careful.
 

SNKR770

Member
Can anyone reference the exact model of British Starter they have bought that works for the Amphicars?

Is it true you need to pound out some sheet metal for these to fits?
 
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