Ripped off?

A

a_colo_native

Guest
I have to say that I am VERY pissed off. I received and email
informing me that there seems to be somebody on eBay that may (I have
no proof YET) have used one of my CDs to reproduce my manuals. I
would like to think this is not so especially after I spent hundreds
of hours going through each and every word of the 300+ pages for the
benefit of us all. And now for somebody to rip me off? He doesn't
even have the correct cover on it! What can I/we do?

John Bevins
 
J

Jack

Guest
Hi John,
If it is true, I am very sorry to hear this. I own an International Trading
company (not stocks and bonds) dealing in durable and perishable goods.
This happens to me on a regular basis. Money or the perception thereof does
very strange things to people. Pond scum (no pun intended) abounds. They
know no boundaries, and that very well may include those you would consider
friends.
Besides legal action (in which many cases there is no recourse or it is to
expensive justify) I take heart in the old clich? "What goes around comes
around", faith that a higher power that takes care of all ills ( I just wish
I could be present when it happens).
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: <minnow@amphicar.net>
To: <amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 2:24 PM
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Ripped off?


> I have to say that I am VERY pissed off. I received and email
> informing me that there seems to be somebody on eBay that may (I have
> no proof YET) have used one of my CDs to reproduce my manuals. I
> would like to think this is not so especially after I spent hundreds
> of hours going through each and every word of the 300+ pages for the
> benefit of us all. And now for somebody to rip me off? He doesn't
> even have the correct cover on it! What can I/we do?
>
> John Bevins
>
>
> THE AMPHICAR-LOVERS LIST
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Before posting requests for information, please check the List
> Archives:
> http://www.escribe.com/automotive/amphicar/search.html
> For more information about this List and other available services
> visit:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amphicar-lovers/
> To UNsubscribe from this List, just send a blank email to:
> amphicar-lovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Any other issues may be addressed to the List owner (Mike Israel) at:
> amphicar770@yahoo.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
 
A

a_colo_native

Guest
Thanks Jack!

At the moment I am hopeing that he didn't know I have done this
already and he did it *without* the use of my hard work. If I find
out differently, I will have to deal with it in my own way. Makes me
not want to do anything nice anymore. I REALLY hope that it is not as
it appears, I don't see Amphicar people being that way. I have his
name and address and a phone number will be forthcomming so I can
speak with him directly and find out the facts before I break out the
big guns.

John
 
E

Ed Price

Guest
Re: Re: Ripped off?

----- Original Message -----
From: a_colo_native <minnow@amphicar.net>
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 2:29 PM
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Ripped off?


Thanks Jack!

At the moment I am hopeing that he didn't know I have done this
already and he did it *without* the use of my hard work. If I find
out differently, I will have to deal with it in my own way. Makes me
not want to do anything nice anymore. I REALLY hope that it is not as
it appears, I don't see Amphicar people being that way. I have his
name and address and a phone number will be forthcomming so I can
speak with him directly and find out the facts before I break out the
big guns.

John



John:

The rights are maybe more complicated than you think.

The way I understand copyright, when you first bought an Amphicar, you also
received an Owner's Manual as part of the deliverable sale. That gives you the
right to read the manual, and make copies for your own use. You also have the
right to include that manual in a future sale of the vehicle, and sell the
single copy to anyone.

If you bought a Service Manual from Amphicar, then you have similar limited
rights with that manual too.

One thing that copyright precludes is your copying either manual in order to
give away copies or sell copies. In order to do that, you would need express
permission of the copyright holder. And therein lies a big problem. Certainly,
somebody copyrighted the documents originally. When Amphicar was liquidated, the
copyrights would have been an asset available for sale. Who knows where those
rights now reside? It's quite possible that nobody could come up with proof of
ownership of those old copyrights.

If there was more money at stake, this could get to be very ugly. But I think it
would be difficult to have any standing on a claim that somebody copied the work
that you copied, even if you added significant new work to the package. Now
don't misunderstand me, I think you have done us all a great service by making
the manuals available to all of us in a searchable format. I support you in
that, and of course, I have bought a copy from you.

It just seems to me that attracting legal attention, for whatever initial
reason, is not the best idea.


Ed
El Cajon
67 Rust Guppy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
B

Bernie Soldate

Guest
RE: Re: Ripped off?

Hi John

This is right up my alley.
I personally detest people who rip off others. It gives me a warm
fuzzy feeling making it right. If I can be of any help, give me a call.

Bernie Soldate
Member
The International Amphicar Owners Club
1966 Amphicar Red RubberDucky
1967 Amphicar Red TubToy

Bernie Soldate
Private Investigations & Forensic Polygraph Center
136 Stratton Brook Road Simsbury, CT. 06070-2309
Simsbury, CT. Office 860 651-4200 Fax 860 651-7700 Hartford, CT. 860
249-1500
http://www.soldateinvestigations.com
http://www.connecticutpi.com
http://www.ct-pi.com
mailto:berniesoldatepi@pobox.com mailto:polygraphcenter@pobox.com
Chairman - Board of Governors CALPI Connecticut Association Licensed
Private Investigators
mailto:CALPI@pobox.com http://www.CALPI.org
Director - NECOSIA New England Council Of State Investigator Associations
http://www.pimall.com/necosia/index.html
Member; CALPI, NECOSIA, NAIS, NEOA, NESC, NCISS, Investigators of America
Simsbury & Greater Hartford Chamber of Commerce



> -----Original Message-----
> From: a_colo_native <minnow@amphicar.net> [mailto:minnow@amphicar.net]
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:30 PM
> To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Ripped off?
>
>
> Thanks Jack!
>
> At the moment I am hopeing that he didn't know I have done this
> already and he did it *without* the use of my hard work. If I find
> out differently, I will have to deal with it in my own way. Makes me
> not want to do anything nice anymore. I REALLY hope that it is not as
> it appears, I don't see Amphicar people being that way. I have his
> name and address and a phone number will be forthcomming so I can
> speak with him directly and find out the facts before I break out the
> big guns.
>
> John
>
>
> THE AMPHICAR-LOVERS LIST
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Before posting requests for information, please check the List
> Archives:
> http://www.escribe.com/automotive/amphicar/search.html
> For more information about this List and other available services
> visit:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amphicar-lovers/
> To UNsubscribe from this List, just send a blank email to:
> amphicar-lovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Any other issues may be addressed to the List owner (Mike Israel) at:
> amphicar770@yahoo.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
 
J

Jack

Guest
Re: Re: Ripped off?

Hi John,
The vast majority of people are inherently good. Don't allow the misguided
actions of one person (possibly) to alter your good heart and intentions.
As Ed stated, he purchased a copy from you. You are helping people, that's
what's important in life.
Jack
 
A

a_colo_native

Guest
I need to preface this with... I have *no proof yet* if this is my
work or not. Like I have said before, if it is then there is a big
problem. If it is new work, then good on him and let the our free
trade system work it's magic. Then it's called competition. If it's
my work, it's called theft.

> The way I understand copyright, when you first bought an Amphicar,
you also received an Owner's Manual as part of the deliverable sale.
That gives you the right to read the manual, and make copies for your
own use. You also have the right to include that manual in a future
sale of the vehicle, and sell the single copy to anyone.

This part is somewhat true, but the moment you sell the copy, you are
infringing on the copyright.

> One thing that copyright precludes is your copying either manual in
order to give away copies or sell copies. In order to do that, you
would need express permission of the copyright holder. And therein
lies a big problem. Certainly, somebody copyrighted the documents
originally. When Amphicar was liquidated, the copyrights would have
been an asset available for sale. Who knows where those rights now
reside? It's quite possible that nobody could come up with proof of
ownership of those old copyrights.

I spoke with the Copyright office yesterday and according to them the
copyrights for this have gone to public domain years ago. As I have
done "significant work and additions" to the original, I can and will
be claiming copyrights to it per the law. I only must state what is
new material and what is not.

My biggest concern is that he may be making money off of my hundreds
of hours hard work. I have a significant amount of cash out of pocket
at stake as well. Not even taking into consideration my labor, these
are not cheap to print.

>
> If there was more money at stake, this could get to be very ugly.
But I think it would be difficult to have any standing on a claim
that somebody copied the work that you copied, even if you added
significant new work to the package. Now don't misunderstand me, I
think you have done us all a great service by making the manuals
available to all of us in a searchable format. I support you in that,
and of course, I have bought a copy from you.

Thanks, and I hope my concerns are very clear here. I did way more
than just "copy" the material (that would be exacly what is available
already from Hugh). These are COMPLETLY new, I fixed gramatical
errors, mis-spellings, mistated info, clarified photos, update
schematics and much more that would be apparent to most.

I did not do it for the money, yes that is a part of it, but not the
focus. I do expect to get my money back as anyone should. I wanted to
provide a useful tool that far surpasses the currently available
reproductions. Again, I don't mind competition, I do mind outright
theft.

John
 
E

Eric M

Guest
Ed has some good points but there are some other points to be
considered.....

It is possible that the copyright to these has expired. The "owner"
could have renewed them but as I understand it when the Amphicar
corporation went under I doubt they sold that assett.

If (and it is a big if) this is now Public Domain then John could
copyright what he did since it was far more involved than merely
xeroxing pages and the idexing, linking etc.... would have qualified
it as "unique" even though it is based on public domain source.

If interested I could probably dig up some reference links.

Eric






--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Price" <edprice@c...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: a_colo_native <minnow@a...>
> To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 2:29 PM
> Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Ripped off?
>
>
> Thanks Jack!
>
> At the moment I am hopeing that he didn't know I have done this
> already and he did it *without* the use of my hard work. If I
find
> out differently, I will have to deal with it in my own way. Makes
me
> not want to do anything nice anymore. I REALLY hope that it is
not as
> it appears, I don't see Amphicar people being that way. I have
his
> name and address and a phone number will be forthcomming so I can
> speak with him directly and find out the facts before I break out
the
> big guns.
>
> John
>
>
>
> John:
>
> The rights are maybe more complicated than you think.
>
> The way I understand copyright, when you first bought an Amphicar,
you also received an Owner's Manual as part of the deliverable sale.
That gives you the right to read the manual, and make copies for your
own use. You also have the right to include that manual in a future
sale of the vehicle, and sell the single copy to anyone.
>
> If you bought a Service Manual from Amphicar, then you have similar
limited rights with that manual too.
>
> One thing that copyright precludes is your copying either manual in
order to give away copies or sell copies. In order to do that, you
would need express permission of the copyright holder. And therein
lies a big problem. Certainly, somebody copyrighted the documents
originally. When Amphicar was liquidated, the copyrights would have
been an asset available for sale. Who knows where those rights now
reside? It's quite possible that nobody could come up with proof of
ownership of those old copyrights.
>
> If there was more money at stake, this could get to be very ugly.
But I think it would be difficult to have any standing on a claim
that somebody copied the work that you copied, even if you added
significant new work to the package. Now don't misunderstand me, I
think you have done us all a great service by making the manuals
available to all of us in a searchable format. I support you in that,
and of course, I have bought a copy from you.
>
> It just seems to me that attracting legal attention, for whatever
initial reason, is not the best idea.
>
>
> Ed
> El Cajon
> 67 Rust Guppy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
A

a_colo_native

Guest
Hey Eric! Haven't heard from you for some time. Hope you're planning
on Celina.

> It is possible that the copyright to these has expired.
The "owner"
> could have renewed them but as I understand it when the Amphicar
> corporation went under I doubt they sold that assett.

It has expired and has not been renewed.

> If (and it is a big if) this is now Public Domain then John could
> copyright what he did since it was far more involved than merely
> xeroxing pages and the idexing, linking etc.... would have
qualified
> it as "unique" even though it is based on public domain source.

I spoke with the copyright office and they said I can (and I have
started) copyright my work because it is considered "significant"

> If interested I could probably dig up some reference links.

If you have anything to add, feel free! Thanksa Eric

John
 
E

Ed Price

Guest
Re: Re: Ripped off?

John:

----- Original Message -----
From: a_colo_native <minnow@amphicar.net>
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:15 AM
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Ripped off?



> It is possible that the copyright to these has expired.
The "owner"
> could have renewed them but as I understand it when the Amphicar
> corporation went under I doubt they sold that assett.

It has expired and has not been renewed.

Not wanting to dwell on this too long, but were the materials protected by both
a German and an American copyright? I seem to recall that American copyright was
something like 27 years, but then I heard that this was just lengthened to
something like 75 years. And I have no idea about the German legal details (as
most German legal details are quite detailed <g>).


Regards,

Ed


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top