Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is the Question

M

Mike Israel

Guest
Hi All,

Amongst the many late night discussions at Celina was the topic of
how best to deal with the rear quarters in that pocket between the
inner and outer panels. Would be interested in thoughts and
experiences of others.

There seem to be three options with pros and cons to each.

1) Fill them with epoxy or something. The advantage here is that
if you can keep water out then you should have no future problems
with rust. The problems seem two-fold. If the seal is broken due
to vibration or anything else, water will definitely be trapped with
no way out other that to eventually start oxidizing metal.
Likewise, if the space is filled, it would make doing a spot repair
more difficult as you could not just easily cut out a coin sized
piece and weld in a patch.

2) Leave them open. Water will get in there and how do you then
fully dry it out? At the same time, easy to keep an eye on what is
happening and you can use maintenance treatments such as waxoil.

3) Leave them open but put some sort of small drain plug at bottom
of each panel. Not sure on pros or cons here?

Your thoughts?

Mike I.
 
A

a_colo_native

Guest
Mike,

Somebody mentioned grease in there. That will be the best IMNSHO.
The grease will not dry out and crack, it will leave an even thin coat
to cover the metal. Allows water in and out too.

John Bevins
Rocky Mountain Amphicar
105 deg last Tues, today 65 deg!
 
D

David Chapman

Guest
<table bgColor="#ffffff">
<font face="Arial" size="2">Number 2 is the answer. That's based on my experience with Amphis over the last 20 years and having talked to many German owners who have had their cars since new. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Number 3 is not necessary - the water will evaporate although there is a case for a drain plug if the car is used in salt water as it then becomes easier to hose it out. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Number 1 sounds good but doesn't work - whatever you do moisture gets trapped and it rusts faster. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">When rustproofing Amphi pay attention to the box section directly under the radiator and the two frame members. These always have air inside which contains moisture - the level depends on the temperature - as soon as you get in the water the temperature drops, then the air can no longer hold the moisture so you get condensation which forms on the inside - directly against the metal. If you ever get the chance to see an Amphi that has been cut in half you can see this unusual rust patten. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Best solution for the frame mebers is drill a hole in the front near the steering gear, (later plugged with abolt andfibre washer) make sure any water is removed and then using a high pressure spray coat the inside with wax - ideally then check with an endoscope. I did this to my car in 1989 and have checked it every 5 years or so and all still looks good. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">David C</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: Mike Israel
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 3:32 AM
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is the Question

<tt>Hi All,

Amongst the many late night discussions at Celina was the topic of
how best to deal with the rear quarters in that pocket between the
inner and outer panels. Would be interested in thoughts and
experiences of others.

There seem to be three options with pros and cons to each.

1) Fill them with epoxy or something. The advantage here is that
if you can keep water out then you should have no future problems
with rust. The problems seem two-fold. If the seal is broken due
to vibration or anything else, water will definitely be trapped with
no way out other that to eventually start oxidizing metal.
Likewise, if the space is filled, it would make doing a spot repair
more difficult as you could not just easily cut out a coin sized
piece and weld in a patch.

2) Leave them open. Water will get in there and how do you then
fully dry it out? At the same time, easy to keep an eye on what is
happening and you can use maintenance treatments such as waxoil.

3) Leave them open but put some sort of small drain plug at bottom
of each panel. Not sure on pros or cons here?

Your thoughts?

Mike I.




</tt>
 
W

WB6WSN

Guest
<table bgColor="#ffffff">
<font color="#0000ff" size="4"></font>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: Mike Israel
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:32 PM
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is the Question


<tt>Hi All,

Amongst the many late night discussions at Celina was the topic of
how best to deal with the rear quarters in that pocket between the
inner and outer panels. Would be interested in thoughts and
experiences of others.

There seem to be three options with pros and cons to each.
</tt>
<tt></tt></blockquote>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4"></font></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4">My project has slowed down this past year, but both of my quarter-panels were almost totally rusted away. I have been giving a lot of thought to having the horizontal surfaces (below the battery and muffler) extend outward to meet the inner surface of the fenders. The lowest edge of the fender would then just stick down into the water like a fin. There would be no pocket at all.</font></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4"></font></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4">The lowest edge of the quarter-panel fender is just cosmetic, and I don't see any good in re-creating the traditional pocket. To eliminate vibration, I'll probably have to build up the thickness of the lower edge.</font></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4"></font></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4">This is a drastic solution to the pocket rust problem, but not too extreme if you have to rebuild the whole area anyway. Anybody have any comments?</font></tt>
<tt></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4">Ed
El Cajon, CA USA
67 Rust Guppy
</font>
</tt>
 
D

David Chapman

Guest
<table bgColor="#ffffff">
<font face="Arial" size="2">The reason it is shaped like the keel of a boat is because it works like a keel of a boat. I don't know anyone who has ever tried that modification but I reckon it needs to be double skinned there for strength, if you just had a flat sheet of steel it would likely bend in any cross current if not from the force of the water turning the propellors. </font>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4">The lowest edge of the quarter-panel fender is just cosmetic, and I don't see any good in re-creating the traditional pocket. To eliminate vibration, I'll probably have to build up the thickness of the lower edge.</font></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4"></font></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4">This is a drastic solution to the pocket rust problem, but not too extreme if you have to rebuild the whole area anyway. Anybody have any comments?</font></tt>
<tt></tt>
<tt><font face="Times New Roman" color="#0000ff" size="4">Ed
El Cajon, CA USA
67 Rust Guppy
</font>
</tt>
 
J

John Friese

Guest
Hello Mike,

I've given the problem of those rear lower quarters quite a bit of
thought since I completely replaced them on one of my cars and
welding in a bit of new metal on my other car within the past year.

The problem with completely filling the quarters is that it's
difficult to get the bond between the different materials to hold
over time. Different expansion characteristics and the general
shrinkage of most plastic like materials eventually will break the
bond between materials and allow moisture to collect and rust to
begin.

A coating rather than a solid filler allows the materials to hold
together better but coating the lower areas of late model cars, with
lips, is a tricky matter.

I came up with a solution that, for me, is working quite well. I
filled the rear quarters with the same high solids, two part epoxy
paint (the manufacturer calls it "mastic") that I used on the inside
of the car BUT, after sloshing the paint around a few seconds, I used
a vacuum pump arrangement to suck out extra paint which leaves a
solid coating all through that area, including inside the lip area.
I can't use that same system along the top of the rear wheel wells so
I spray thinned Waxoil into those areas. These areas essentially
can't be seen or touched and I think the Waxoil will provide enough
protection there.

When I come home from a swim, I run a folded paper towel down into
those rear quarters to suck out any water splash that might have
accumulated but I think that even if I didn't do this, the coating
itself forms enough of a "bathtub" so that the water would eventually
evaporate without causing trouble.

I live in Southern California, where it rarely rains, so my cars have
it a bit easier than they do in many places. My solution works
pretty well for me but I realize that if the car were left out in the
rain, those rear quarters would probably fill up and I wouldn't want
that to happen on a regular basis. I've tried to come up with a
solution that would perhaps work better for those folks in climates
not as dry as mine.

My current thoughts involve coating those lower quarter areas, like I
do now, and then filling them with that expansion foam used in the
building trades. A bead of it layed down at the bottom of the
quarter would expand right over the top and should completely fill
the space. I would then slice off the part that comes above the
floor edge and top coat the exposed, open foam with a couple coats of
the same epoxy interior paint. This would fill the holes in the foam
and seal out moisture. That foam stuff sticks like crazy and it
should remain flexible enough to "give" a bit with the expansion and
contractions of the various materials. Also, if you had to, you
could get much or all of the stuff out without chopping away the
quarter panel.

I'm not a big fan of the drain idea, mainly because I'd probably
forget to close of the drains someday. Also, I don't think a drain
could easily be put right at the bottom of the cavity.

My cars run essentially "dry" so I was surprised when I had problems
with one of my cars rusting in the lower quarters even though nothing
got into the car. It turned out the problem was that during some
previous repair of that area not enough care was taken to close off
the bottom seam between the inner and outer panels. Water was
getting between those layers and causing the rust. I never had water
in the car because the inner coating was keeping the water out.
Since figuring this out, I now examine those lower seams each year to
be sure they are tight. If any sign of a crack shows up, I close it
off with a rubberized version of superglue which I find at a local
hobby shop. Only use it if you find the rubberized type though since
most superglues are so brittle that I think they would crack over
time.

On a related issue. I did an article about a year or so ago about
hidden rust in the frame rails. It was posted as a tech column in
the newsletter and I would suggest you look it up for my thoughts
there. Basically, I open a 1" inspection hole on the top center of
the frame rail, several inches in front of the transmission mount.
This hole allows for the removal of accumulated water and also lets
the hot engine air circulate inside the frames to dry out
condensation. All four rails, in both my cars, either had standing
water or signs of previous water in them. If your car runs "wet" you
can simply use rubber stoppers, from the hardware store, to close off
those holes when in the water. I also put in emergency drain plugs
up near the steering gear but I've never had to use them.

P.S. Even though it's hard for me to get to Celina, and I've only
been there once, I think the convention should stay there. That
great town and it's people would be hard to beat or even match.

Enjoy,

John Friese
Santa Barbara, CA

67 White
67 Red


--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Israel"
<amphicar770@y...> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Amongst the many late night discussions at Celina was the topic of
> how best to deal with the rear quarters in that pocket between the
> inner and outer panels. Would be interested in thoughts and
> experiences of others.
>
> There seem to be three options with pros and cons to each.
>
> 1) Fill them with epoxy or something. The advantage here is that
> if you can keep water out then you should have no future problems
> with rust. The problems seem two-fold. If the seal is broken due
> to vibration or anything else, water will definitely be trapped
with
> no way out other that to eventually start oxidizing metal.
> Likewise, if the space is filled, it would make doing a spot repair
> more difficult as you could not just easily cut out a coin sized
> piece and weld in a patch.
>
> 2) Leave them open. Water will get in there and how do you then
> fully dry it out? At the same time, easy to keep an eye on what is
> happening and you can use maintenance treatments such as waxoil.
>
> 3) Leave them open but put some sort of small drain plug at bottom
> of each panel. Not sure on pros or cons here?
>
> Your thoughts?
>
> Mike I.
 
B

Bobby

Guest
Some of the ideas are quite good. There are some things to be wary
of. I'm an old boat lover and cabin cruisers are my thing. As far as
sealing off the area, it's the same principle as winterizing a boat.
Most boaters reccomend leaving cabinet doors open as well as vents
through the boat covers and things like that. If air cannot
occasionally move through an area, condensation and mold will form and
in a sealed quarter, it might be minimal but it will be there. The
foam idea would work but like many of the boats I've re-decked that
had good fiberglass finishes, let one little spot crack open and
you'll later find the foam to be water logged and very heavy. You wont
know it until the damage is done. I really like the drain plug idea
and have personally seen the benefits of and unrestored old Amphi that
had the grease coating in there. You can see through it with a
flashlight and even bare metal looks like new after 30+ years. It
worked great in the bilge too although not eye appealing but hey, keep
it covered and you'll never be bothered by it. Bobby
 
M

markamsdill@charter.net>

Guest
Re: Re: Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is the Question

Hello all, I used Amsoil metal protector. Its like thin grease in a spray can. I
will find out how it worked by this Fall. Good luck, MarkAmsdill 62 white>
> From: "a_colo_native" <colo_frontrange@netzero.net>
> Date: 2005/07/27 Wed AM 02:23:06 EDT
> To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is
the Question
>
>

</td></tr>
<table>
<tt>
Mike,



Somebody mentioned grease in there. That will be the best IMNSHO.

The grease will not dry out and crack, it will leave an even thin coat

to cover the metal. Allows water in and out too.



John Bevins

Rocky Mountain Amphicar

105 deg last Tues, today 65 deg!







</tt>
 
R

Richard

Guest
Does anyone have an opinion regarding POR-15 (either the paint or
the the patch)? Others say this stuff will not peel, deteriorate or
rust.

Has anyone out there used it as a topcoat for inside panels or under
the vehicle? Has anyone used the POR patch from the tube to fill
certain areas?

Regards,
Richard
1967 Green





"Mike Israel" wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Amongst the many late night discussions at Celina was the topic of
> how best to deal with the rear quarters in that pocket between the
> inner and outer panels. Would be interested in thoughts and
> experiences of others.
>
> There seem to be three options with pros and cons to each.
>
> 1) Fill them with epoxy or something. The advantage here is
that
> if you can keep water out then you should have no future problems
> with rust. The problems seem two-fold. If the seal is broken due
> to vibration or anything else, water will definitely be trapped
with
> no way out other that to eventually start oxidizing metal.
> Likewise, if the space is filled, it would make doing a spot
repair
> more difficult as you could not just easily cut out a coin sized
> piece and weld in a patch.
>
> 2) Leave them open. Water will get in there and how do you then
> fully dry it out? At the same time, easy to keep an eye on what
is
> happening and you can use maintenance treatments such as waxoil.
>
> 3) Leave them open but put some sort of small drain plug at bottom
> of each panel. Not sure on pros or cons here?
>
> Your thoughts?
>
> Mike I.
 
M

Mike Israel

Guest
Re: Re: Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is the Question

I have used the Por-15 paint. Very durable IF the
surface it is applied to is spotless and scuffed
before applying. Used it under the rear horizontal
bumper strip 5+ years ago and it held up great. Also
used the clear on the inside of front bumper and that
has done well although I later hit same area with
waxoil which also works well there. There is a big
spot of it on my garage floor which will probably be
there forever!

On areas, such as inside hull, with any oil residue,
etc., Por15 will indeed peel. Yes, it really will.
When I started hacking away at areas like battery tray
it did peel off and water was underneath.

Por-15 has its uses but is not the miracle substance
some claim. A good epoxy primer is probably better.
As for the patch stuff in a tube, JB Weld works just
great.

Mike I.

--- Richard <amphipilot@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have an opinion regarding POR-15 (either
> the paint or
> the the patch)? Others say this stuff will not
> peel, deteriorate or
> rust.
>
> Has anyone out there used it as a topcoat for inside
> panels or under
> the vehicle? Has anyone used the POR patch from the
> tube to fill
> certain areas?
>
> Regards,
> Richard
> 1967 Green
>
>
 
P

PVCJ PVCJ

Guest
RE: Re: Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is the Question

hello Richard
I use Por-15 on all my cars" I coated the whole inside of my 67 amphi and no
problem, It even sat out in the rain for a few days with a gutted inside and
not even a speck of rust. the only problem i am having is getting paint to
stick to it. You have to rought it up a little so the paint has something to
stick too. GOOD LUCK PAUL From Albany NY

>From: "Richard" <amphipilot@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
>To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That
>is the Question
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:26:50 -0000
>
>Does anyone have an opinion regarding POR-15 (either the paint or
>the the patch)? Others say this stuff will not peel, deteriorate or
>rust.
>
>Has anyone out there used it as a topcoat for inside panels or under
>the vehicle? Has anyone used the POR patch from the tube to fill
>certain areas?
>
>Regards,
>Richard
>1967 Green
>
>
>
>
>
>"Mike Israel" wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Amongst the many late night discussions at Celina was the topic of
> > how best to deal with the rear quarters in that pocket between the
> > inner and outer panels. Would be interested in thoughts and
> > experiences of others.
> >
> > There seem to be three options with pros and cons to each.
> >
> > 1) Fill them with epoxy or something. The advantage here is
>that
> > if you can keep water out then you should have no future problems
> > with rust. The problems seem two-fold. If the seal is broken due
> > to vibration or anything else, water will definitely be trapped
>with
> > no way out other that to eventually start oxidizing metal.
> > Likewise, if the space is filled, it would make doing a spot
>repair
> > more difficult as you could not just easily cut out a coin sized
> > piece and weld in a patch.
> >
> > 2) Leave them open. Water will get in there and how do you then
> > fully dry it out? At the same time, easy to keep an eye on what
>is
> > happening and you can use maintenance treatments such as waxoil.
> >
> > 3) Leave them open but put some sort of small drain plug at bottom
> > of each panel. Not sure on pros or cons here?
> >
> > Your thoughts?
> >
> > Mike I.
>
>
>
 
R

robert millman

Guest
RE: Re: Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That is the Question

I am now concerned that I will be facing a problem down the road, oh well, more money to be spent sometime in the future.
After a swim-in in Boston last year, I spent days cleaning, drying and preping my quarters and then filled them with glovit upon the recommendations of several attendees (hey, I was and still am a newbie). I will keep a surface coat of waxoil on it in the event there is some separation. Now that it is in, it ain't coming out anytime soon.

Robert '66 white in Boston

PVCJ PVCJ <pvcj@hotmail.com> wrote:
<blockquote class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><tt>hello Richard
I use Por-15 on all my cars" I coated the whole inside of my 67 amphi and no
problem, It even sat out in the rain for a few days with a gutted inside and
not even a speck of rust. the only problem i am having is getting paint to
stick to it. You have to rought it up a little so the paint has something to
stick too. GOOD LUCK PAUL From Albany NY

>From: "Richard" <amphipilot@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
>To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Rear Quarters - To Fill or Not to Fill, That
>is the Question
>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:26:50 -0000
>
>Does anyone have an opinion regarding POR-15 (either the paint or
>the the patch)? Others say this stuff will not peel, deteriorate or
>rust.
>
>Has
anyone out there used it as a topcoat for inside panels or under
>the vehicle? Has anyone used the POR patch from the tube to fill
>certain areas?
>
>Regards,
>Richard
>1967 Green
>
>
>
>
>
>"Mike Israel" wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Amongst the many late night discussions at Celina was the topic of
> > how best to deal with the rear quarters in that pocket between the
> > inner and outer panels. Would be interested in thoughts and
> > experiences of others.
> >
> > There seem to be three options with pros and cons to each.
> >
> > 1) Fill them with epoxy or something. The advantage here is
>that
> > if you can keep water out then you should have no future problems
> > with rust. The problems seem two-fold. If the seal is broken due
> > to vibration or
anything else, water will definitely be trapped
>with
> > no way out other that to eventually start oxidizing metal.
> > Likewise, if the space is filled, it would make doing a spot
>repair
> > more difficult as you could not just easily cut out a coin sized
> > piece and weld in a patch.
> >
> > 2) Leave them open. Water will get in there and how do you then
> > fully dry it out? At the same time, easy to keep an eye on what
>is
> > happening and you can use maintenance treatments such as waxoil.
> >
> > 3) Leave them open but put some sort of small drain plug at bottom
> > of each panel. Not sure on pros or cons here?
> >
> > Your thoughts?
> >
> > Mike I.
>
>
>


</tt></blockquote>

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