Radials Tubeless or not ?

S

SplitPersonality

Guest
I should at least register my vote or my experience in this back and forth
discussion. You ask a very valid question Mark as to whether anyone with an
Amphicar has actually had their tire roll of a rim. I hate to supply
ammunition to the NO TUBE recommendation contrary to Rocky Mountain John's advice,
because I know him personally and know that he has a lot of experience and good
reasons for his advice. Additionally like many of us who use this website, I
deplore those that offer information, experiences, advice and etc. and don't
sign their names. It may be very obvious to many who the writer was who said
they ( he or she ) had been running Diamondbacks for 5 years with tubes
etc., but I can only guess. Might it be you Mike Israel ?

I purchased my Amphicar 11 years ago last month from a personal friend who
unfortunately never got the chance to take her in the water himself as his
health went way down hill and he passed away at age 57 about 3 or 4 years ago.
However, he went about having the Amphicar which is now our "Split
Personality" restored in 1991. I do know from both him and Hugh Gordon that he
purchased a lot of parts from Hugh Gordon. As to whether he purchased the tires from
Hugh, I do not know, though if it mattered, Hugh's records would show.

At any rate, The front tires have at least 6000 miles on them ( since I tow
the car backwards on a Tow Dolly only part of those miles are "driving
miles." The rear tires for the same reason, then are driving miles and have
probably 2-3000 miles. At any rate, the tires have been absolutely perfect in my
experience and are Tubeless steel belted Radials without any tubes. ( They say
"tubeless" right on the sidewall.) They have barely ever lost much air and
definitely do not leak. In short, they have required NO attention whatsoever
other than checking the pressure VERY occasionally and airing them if
indicated.

The Tires are: JETZON INNOVATION II made in the USA. 175/80 R 13 with 3
belts in the tread - 1 polyester cord and 2 steel cords. In medium size
print, they say M & S and in smaller print say
"Max. load 535 lbs" and max inflation 35 lbs.

So for what it is worth, that is my experience. I too am quite curious to
know if ANYONE has actually experienced a tubeless radial without a tube
rolling off a rim of their Amphicar. If not, then considering the likelihood, I
would say one ought not to worry in view of both my and a number of other
owner's experience. I went through the very same discussion with the Woodie folks
before I opted for Tubeless Diamondbacks. My experience with the Woodie has
mirrored the experience of every one of the other Woodie ( and non Woodie )
people with whom I discussed the matter. IF you are really a wild driver or
drive a lot at high speed or corner hard or often, then maybe it should be
considered. But, for the majority of us owners, I would personally say go
tubeless. One less thing to leak, one less thing to go into the balancing
equation, etc. As I mentioned in a previous e-mail, call Diamondback and ask to talk
personally with the owner, Bill Chapman. He will share his experience with
you on the subject as well as his reasons. He is very personable and certainly
knowledgeable. With the Woodie, he recommended I use the passenger car size
which is a bit narrower, so the bead would sit better on the rim. The weight
rating of the tires he recommended still far exceeds the weight they would
need to carry so he was not ignoring safety in that regard. Those tires have
needed virtually no air in a year and being the Diamondback Classics, they
really DO STAY WHITE.

Vic Nelson with the 1967 "Split Personality" near Daytona Beach



**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
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mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
>>It may be very obvious to many who the writer was who said they ( he or she ) had been running
>> Diamondbacks for 5 years with tubes etc., but I can only guess. Might it be you Mike Israel ?
Not me.* I have wide whitewall radials from widewhitewalltires.com that I have had for 7 years.* I do not have tubes in them but I really *think I should.

Radial ply tires have beads designed to correspond with rims that have a tapered bead seat and the angles are different.** But this is not really the issue.* It is not the bead that holds on your tire it is AIR PRESSURE.* As Dave Chapman points out, the Amphi requires abnormally low pressure in the front tires.* This means that in a sharp, sudden, manuever that they could unseat.

Maybe it is overkill and it will never happen.* I also do not know of anyone killed in an Amphi that did not have seat belts but I still intsalled them in mine.* Why not spend the extra $50 on tubes.* If nothing else, it is a bit of insurance (life and property) on a $60k+ car.*
 

chasgould

New Member
In a message dated 9/11/08 4:49:56 PM, writes:



>
> The Tires are: JETZON INNOVATION II made in the USA. 175/80 R 13 with 3
> belts in the tread - 1 polyester cord and 2 steel cords. In medium size
> print, they say M & S and in smaller print say
> "Max. load 535 lbs" and max inflation 35 lbs.
>
>
Hi Vic,
I am curious whether these tyres fit without rubbing, and without spacers,
and whether they are white walls?
Thanks,
Charles


**************
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion
blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
 
S

SplitPersonality

Guest
Hello Charles


I am unaware of any rubbing - noise wise or visually. To my knowledge, there
are no spacers. Since I have had all 4 wheels off more than once, I am
fairly certain there are none.

We are headed for Carlisle and Hershey via a roundabout route to the Lane
Museum in Nashville,
the ACD museum in Auburn, the RV museum in Elkhart, the Studebaker museum in
South Bend, then up north to Michigan and the Mackinac Bridge and down to the
Gilmore museum in Hickory Corners and Marvins Marvelous Mechanical Museum
outside Detroit, then on to Carlisle and Hershey. I think this will keep us
occupied - 3000 miles more or less I think I had figured and 1 full month away
from home.

Why don't you take the time and come to Hershey. It is some car show, some
super Car Corral with 1500-2000 (usually) all basically "stock" (that is not
modified or hot rodded) cars, and a humungus Flea Market as well as the Auto
Auction in the evenings. Even if you aren't buying anything, it is some
experience and who knows, you might find you can't live without some things you
find there. Give me a call in the next 3 or 4 days if you want my cell number
if you think you might take the bait and succumb to the temptation - or have
you already been there several times ? Vic



**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
 

CapnJohn

Amphi Guru & Former IAOC President
You guys keep saying "It hasn't happened to me" so it's OK. This is not a smart way to look at it. Because it hasn't happened, does not mean it won't. It only take once! So far I have not drowned in my car. not even once! :005: I do carry PFDs anyway. Do you carry a spare tire and jack? Why, just in case you have a flat. So don't compromise yours and your passenger's safety. Tubes are only $12 each and putting tubeless tires on a tube-type rim is flirting with disaster. If you put talcum powder in the tire before installing the tube, it will help keep it from sticking to the tire. Make sure the stem is straight, the rim is on good condition and use quality tubes. You can also order a liner for the wheel to separate it from the rivets.

Somewhere I do have a picture of an Amphi that flipped over. Windshield crushed to the dash (top was up.) Not a pretty sight. As I remember he was OK and the wreck was becasue he had to take evasive action and the car flipped.

Somebody had stated that only the air pressure holds the tire on. This is not true at all! A tubeless rim has a bead-lock that holds the tire on the rim while the pressure only keeps the tire inflated and rigid.

You can hear the effect of the bead lock when they install the tire and fill it for the first time. It will make a loud "POP" when it is forced onto the lock by the pressure. The bead-lock keeps the bead in place to ensure a airtight seal between the bead and rim. W/O the lock you would be able to break the bead w/o the use of tools.

PLEASE reconsider spending a mere $50 to ensure your safety!
 

amphigill

Member
Original Message-----
From: Tom Jones [amphigill@charter.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:16 PM
To: Coker Tire Support
Subject: Contact email (Live Chat)

Do I need to run tubes in my 64 Amphicar, if I use radials?




=============
From: "Jerry Preisel" <support@coker.com>
To: "'Tom Jones'" <amphigill@charter.net>
Subject: RE: Contact email (Live Chat)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:51:24 -0400

Tom,

Thank you for your recent inquiry into Coker Tire. No you do not need to
run tubes in radial tires. If you have any other questions please feel free
to contact me.

Thanks,


Jerry Preisel



Customer Service Representative
www.coker.com
1-800-251-6336 Ext. 256
Local: 423-265-6368
Fax: 423-756-5607
 

Ed Price

Member
Tom:

You ask the right question, but to the wrong guy. He may be able to speak of
Coker tires, but what is his knowledge and assumptions about Amphicar rims?

The Amphi rims do NOT have the retaining bosses on the inner surface of the
rim. Rims designed for tubeless tires DO have these retaining bosses.

The purpose of these bosses is to provide extra support for the tubeless
tire bead, better holding it in place against the rim to ensure no air
leakage. If you use a tubeless tire on an Amphi rim, you are giving up one
level of protection. This is probably not important for normal driving.
Unfortunately, who can guarantee normal driving conditions all the time?
Sooner or later, you will hit a pothole, swerve sharply to avoid something,
or drive over a curb or something. All of these things can stress the tire
bead away from the rim.

Now, can you imagine what happens when the bead moves away from the rim?
Right, a big loss of air pressure. And it's air pressure that holds the tire
bead against the rim. So, the result could be total loss of tire air
pressure, deformation of the tire, and complete destruction of the tire. All
this happens while you are still rolling along, so the tire shreds itself,
the rim may be damaged, and the body and/or suspension might be damaged by
the disintegrating tire pieces.

A couple of years ago, this topic was discussed at length. I did some
searching at the time, and turned up the following:


"RADIAL-TIRE TUBE:
The construction of an inner tube for use in a radial tire differs from the
tube used in a bias tire. A radial tire flexes in such a manner that it
concentrates the flex action in one area and at the edge of the belts in the
shoulder of the tire. This concentration of stress will damage a standard
tube causing it to fail. To overcome this problem, the radial tube is made
of a special rubber compound that is designed to overcome this concentrated
stress; Therefore, standard tubes must NEVER be used in radial tires. "



"California DMV; Inner Tubes; Section 27455.
(a) On and after January 1, 1975, no person shall sell or offer for sale an
inner tube for use in a radial tire unless, at the time of manufacture, the
tube valve stem is colored red or is distinctly marked in accordance with
rules and regulations adopted by the department, taking into consideration
the recommendations of manufacturers of inner tubes.
(b) No person shall install an inner tube in a radial tire unless the inner
tube is designed for use in a radial tire. "


Make sure that, if you use radial tires, you are also using radial-rated
inner tubes!

Ultimately, you get to choose how much redundant safety you want.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA USA
61 Rust Guppy





_____

From: amphigill [mailto:]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 7:05 AM
To: edprice@cox.net
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20163] Re: Radials Tubeless or
not ?


Original Message-----
From: Tom Jones [amphigill@charter.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:16 PM
To: Coker Tire Support
Subject: Contact email (Live Chat)

Do I need to run tubes in my 64 Amphicar, if I use radials?




=============
From: "Jerry Preisel"
To: "'Tom Jones'"
Subject: RE: Contact email (Live Chat)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:51:24 -0400

Tom,

Thank you for your recent inquiry into Coker Tire. No you do not need to
run tubes in radial tires. If you have any other questions please feel free
to contact me.

Thanks,


Jerry Preisel



Customer Service Representative
www.coker.com
1-800-251-6336 Ext. 256
Local: 423-265-6368
Fax: 423-756-5607
 
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