Radial tyres again!

chasgould

New Member
When I inquired about alternate radial tyres for the Amphicar, at least one person recommended a cheap radial which was available at Sears. Can anyone verify the brand, type and size which will fit on an Amphicar without problems, and advise whether it is availabe in a white wall. Should I run these tubeless on the original Amphicar rims, or do they require tubes?
Thanks,
Chas
 
I just went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for safety reasons. The design of the Amphicar rim is for tube type tires only and if you run tubeless tires on these rims the integrity of the seal could be lost when you least expect it causing instant deflation of the tire! Tubes cost about $10 ea. Because of their reputation, I got the Diamond back wide whites. Dont forget to blast, epoxy prime, 2k prime, wetsand and paint your rims 1st!
 

CapnJohn

Amphi Guru & Former IAOC President
I just went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for safety reasons. The design of the Amphicar rim is for tube type tires only and if you run tubeless tires on these rims the integrity of the seal could be lost when you least expect it causing instant deflation of the tire! Tubes cost about $10 ea. Because of their reputation, I got the Diamond back wide whites. Dont forget to blast, epoxy prime, 2k prime, wetsand and paint your rims 1st!
YES! I can not stress this enough! Amphicar rims do not have a bead lock type rim. If you go tubeless and have to make a hard turn (evasive action) you stand a real good chance of rolling the tire off the rim. You could end up flipping the car. Just because they will hold air, does not make them tubless rims.

TIP - Use an old tube to make a liner to cover the rim. Cut it so you have just the inside section left to line your rim, protecting the tube from rubbing on the rivits inside the rim. Keep a can of fix-a-flat with you too.
 

lelms

Gold Subscriber
Has anyone any experience with a tire, without a tube, coming off a rim?
I just removed 4 Sears bias ply, (no tubes), that came with my car when I bought it 20 years ago. I never had a flat, or even a leak. I added air a few times over those years, but they held firm, until I cut one of them on something exiting a lake. Even with a 3" gash/piece of rubber flapping in the breeze, it held air just fine.
I have just mounted 4 Diamondback radials, without tubes. I have yet to drive it, since I have determined that I need a 1/4" spacer on all wheels. I also have ground down the rear brake bracket about 1/4" and bent it as far toward the center as possible.
Once I have the spacers on the fronts, I am going to adjust the stop bolt to keep the radials from hitting the springs, since I feel they still will, even with the 1/4" spacer.
I contemplated tubes, but my tire shop, the guys that mounted the tires for me, saw no need. They never heard of a wheel separating from a tire as described, so, does anyone have any experience with this, or is it theoretical?
mark lellman
lelms@aol.com
 
R

Ron Green

Guest
I agree with John regarding the tubes and the original design of the rims, which were made for tubes. Just because they work without a tube there is an outside chance during a hard turn, etc they could possibly roll off the rim.

I too have had the Diamondbacks (love them) for 5 years and run tubes. Had to replace a front tube last week (leaker). I have found to keep amphi from wandering somewhat 18 pounds in the front and 28 pounds in the rear seems to be perfect, at least for my car. Diamondbacks are rated at 32 pounds. With that low of pressure (18) in the front I would be even more concerned with a greater chance of a tire rolling off the rim.

Seems odd that you need spacers in the front? I needed them in the rear as there was only a 1/8" clearance at the shock due to the sidewall belly in the radial tires. The fronts were fine.
 

wetwheels1

Diamond Subscriber
boy mark, I can't believe how many responses are being posted over the
internet from this verbage. You have started an uproar.


In a message dated 9/11/2008 11:06:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

Has anyone any experience with a tire, without a tube, coming off a rim?
I just removed 4 Sears bias ply, (no tubes), that came with my car when I
bought it 20 years ago. I never had a flat, or even a leak. I added air a few
times over those years, but they held firm, until I cut one of them on
something exiting a lake. Even with a 3" gash/piece of rubber flapping in the
breeze, it held air just fine.
I have just mounted 4 Diamondback radials, without tubes. I have yet to
drive it, since I have determined that I need a 1/4" spacer on all wheels. I also
have ground down the rear brake bracket about 1/4" and bent it as far toward
the center as possible.
Once I have the spacers on the fronts, I am going to adjust the stop bolt to
keep the radials from hitting the springs, since I feel they still will,
even with the 1/4" spacer.
I contemplated tubes, but my tire shop, the guys that mounted the tires for
me, saw no need. They never heard of a wheel separating from a tire as
described, so, does anyone have any experience with this, or is it theoretical?
mark lellman
_lelms@aol.com_ (mailto:lelms@aol.com)










**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
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Did Amphicars come from the factory with wheel spacers? i found them on my front wheels only on my 64 and wondered what they were there for.
 

lelms

Gold Subscriber
I appreciate any input anyone gives me regarding radials without tubes!
I probably don't need spacers on the front, but it sure looked like I was going to have significantly reduced turning radius without them. The radials, with 30#, (I know, too much, but I have not bled them down yet), were going to hit the left spring long before it hit the stop bolt, which had been set for the previous Sears tires.
Does anyone see any problem with using spacers on the front, as well as the back?
No, I certainly don't think Amphis came from the factory with spacers. This is a modern day device to allow radials and wider tires to be used, since the clearance, as originally setup, did not allow for anything wider than the 6.50x13 bias ply tires.
Is there anyone running the Diamondback radials WITHOUT tubes? Any experiences?
mark lellman
lelms@aol.com
 

DavidC

Amphicar Expert
Amphicar never came with spacers from the factory but they do seem quite common on US cars so were maybe fitted by one of the bigger dealers - like Ranchero motors - probably more to improve the turning circle in the water. Downside of course is extra wheel bearing load on the road and so shorter life.

General advice from tyre manufacturers is you don't fit tubes in radial tyres. This is because many radial tyres have ribs on the inside and that causes friction, heat and failure of the tube. But ignore that... just choose a tyre without ribs on the inside.

You must use tubes on Amphicar. This is because for optimum handling you need to run the front tyres at a lowish pressure - about 20psi - which is borderline anyway for a radial. If you then hit a kerb or even a road hole with the steering turned the tyre bead can be knocked into the centre of the wheel, you get a sudden decompression and the rim digs into the ground - then over you go. This can happen at very low speeds, as little as 20mph if angles and physics are right.

I have to say I've never heard of it happening with an Amphicar but I have seen it with a car called a Hillman Imp on a hillclimb course. The Imp is 1960s English rear engined car with similar wheels and suspension to Amphicar.

When fitting the tubes play close attention to the wheel near the valve stem - there is often rust there which can cause a sharp edge that will cut the valve. Best to seal around there with black silicon to keep it watertight.

Regarding the tubes, choose carefully, the market is flooded with cwap Chinese rubber with the life of a fruit fly. Make sure you special order a quality tube - ideally Pirelli or Continental.

The very best tyres for Amphicar are the ones Paul Rasmussen has fitted to his car and are made in small batches by Mercedes Benz for the late 1950s 190SL (same wheels as Amphicar). These are radial tyres but made in the the original bias size of 640 x 13

The best solution however is to fit 14 inch wheels and then a radial tyre, this looks much better but narrow 5 stud 14 inch wheels that fit Amphicar are very difficult to find.


David Chapman in the UK
 

chasgould

New Member
In a message dated 9/11/08 4:42:50 PM, writes:



> The very best tyres for Amphicar are the ones Paul Rasmussen has fitted to
> his car and are made in small batches by Mercedes Benz for the late 1950s
> 190SL (same wheels as Amphicar). These are radial tyres but made in the the
> original bias size of 640 x 13
>
Hi David,
Do you know a source or price for these tyres? Are they currently available?
Are they white walls?
Charles


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DavidC

Amphicar Expert
Chas, I know they are only available from Mercedes Benz Classic via the Mercedes dealers. They are white wall but not quite as wide as original Amphicar. My understanding is Mercedes will accept orders anytime but only make them when they have enough for a batch - maybe every few years. They are very expensive, well over $100 each. Paul got his when in Germany but I think they are sold in the US.

Best option would be to speak to someone in the Merc SL community, they might know more, one of the 190 SLs on the Mercedes stand at the Essen classic car show in Germany last year had them fitted and they looked new but couldn't be sure.

David C
----- Original Message -----
From: chasgould
To: david@manbus.com
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20162] Re: Radial tyres again!


In a message dated 9/11/08 4:42:50 PM, writes:




Quote:
> The very best tyres for Amphicar are the ones Paul Rasmussen has fitted to
> his car and are made in small batches by Mercedes Benz for the late 1950s
> 190SL (same wheels as Amphicar). These are radial tyres but made in the the
> original bias size of 640 x 13
>

Hi David,
Do you know a source or price for these tyres? Are they currently available?
Are they white walls?
Charles


**************
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion
blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid...0050000000014)
 
The following e-mail is a response from the "answer guy" at Diamond Back Classic Tires. I put the inner tube question to him last week and this is what he has to say. He states that they have asked Myth Busters to perform some tests. I officially nominate Dave Derer to provide an Amphicar with a custom roll cage to help settle this argument. Any seconds on this notion?



Brian,

I have heard both sides of this argument. It appears to me they Amphicar owners are split about 50/50 on this issue of running tubes. The last rationale I heard for running tubes on an Amphicar was that if the current caused the car to drift sideways and the tires hit bottom, the tire could unseat and you would be unable to drive out of the water onto land with a flat tire. I am sure that it would difficult if not impossible to change a tire while afloat.

In the quote you give from the forum the poster states " I just went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for safety reasons". He doesn't say who told him this. I have seen a statement in the catalog of a well known classic tire company as follows - "Older rims that were originally designed for bias-ply tires may crack if used with modern radial tires." Radial tires according to the United States Department of Transportation put less stress on a rim than does a bias ply tire. So, if that company is the one that came up with this, I would take it with a grain of salt.

All I can add to the conversation is that there is a lot myths and old wives tales floating around in the car collector community. Some of them appear to be spread by people that want to sell wheels or tubes, others by people that are sincere but have been "taken in" by people they had confidence in.

Several facts that may help you make up your mind as to which side you fall on:

1. When tubeless tires were introduced, they were designed to run on the thousands if not millions of cars that were currently on the road without requiring the purchase of new rims.

2. If you put a tube in a modern tubeless radial tire, you will need to remove the small paper stickers on the inside of the tire (these are stickers placed in the tire by the mfg for inventory control or quality control reasons) You will also need to put some talcum powder in the tire with the tubes. If this is not done, the tube could begin leaking air within 50 miles.

Unlike bias ply tires with their thick stiff sidewall, radial tires are designed to have sidewalls that flex to allow the tread to remain in complete contact with the road. This flexing is what causes an excessive amount of rubbing between the tubeless tire's inner lining and the tube. I guess you can say that tubeless tires are not designed for tubes.

We sell radial tubes for the people that need to run tubes, so I will be glad to sell you some if you would feel safer with tubes in your tires. The radial tubes are $12.50 each when bought with a set of our tires. If you decide to run tubes, be sure to remove the paper stickers on the inside of the tires and to use talcum powder.
If I owned a Amphicar I would put tubeless radial tires on it without tubes. I would run a minimum of 35 psi.


I have talked with several car owners that have experienced the leaking tubes when they put tubes in their radial tires because they are running wire wheels that will not hold air. Two claimed they had a flat tire within 50 miles. The leaks were caused by the paper stickers in the tires. I have never talked to a car owner that has had a tubeless tire "unseat from the rim" during an evasive action. Not saying that it hasn't happened, just that the people I have heard claiming this always say it happened to a friend of a friend of their third cousin twice removed - or somethihg similar. We have submitted a request to Myth Busters to test tubeless radail tires on older rims that came with tube type bias ply tires to separate the fact from the fiction.

Removing those little paper stickers is quite an ordeal. With most of them, you have to use a dremel tool with a small wire brush to remove the sticker. Since you can't even feel the sticker with you finger tips, it most be the difference in friction between the slick paper and the rubber inner liner that causes the break in the tube.

Richard


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Crombie [mailto:Brian.Crombie@poly-tex.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 1:41 PM
To: info@dbtires.com
Subject: A need for inner tubes?

Richard,
The forum post below is a recent discussion regarding the need for inner tubes with any radial tire used on an Amphicar. The Amphicar rims apparently do not have a "bead lock" design which prevents a sudden air loss when the tire becomes highly stressed.
I am kindly asking that you clarify a need or no need for an inner tube using your product on this type of rim.
Many thanks for your input!

Brian Crombie
Faribault, Minnesota
'64, '65, '67 Amphicar owner
International Amphicar Owners Club member
www.amphicar.com
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canitfloat
I just went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for safety reasons. The design of the Amphicar rim is for tube type tires only and if you run tubeless tires on these rims the integrity of the seal could be lost when you least expect it causing instant deflation of the tire! Tubes cost about $10 ea. Because of their reputation, I got the Diamond back wide whites. Dont forget to blast, epoxy prime, 2k prime, wetsand and paint your rims 1st!

YES! I can not stress this enough! Amphicar rims do not have a bead lock type rim. If you go tubeless and have to make a hard turn (evasive action) you stand a real good chance of rolling the tire off the rim. You could end up flipping the car. Just because they will hold air, does not make them tubless rims.

TIP - Use an old tube to make a liner to cover the rim. Cut it so you have just the inside section left to line your rim, protecting the tube from rubbing on the rivits inside the rim. Keep a can of fix-a-flat with you too.


 

EricM

New Member
Meaning no disrespect to the gentleman who answered the question I'd
love for him the experience how an Amphicar handles at 55 mph with 35
PSI in the front tires (or tyres if you prefer). I know how mine
drove before I learned to let the air out of them.

As with most of these discussions the devil is in the details. His
advice may well be correct at 35 psi... but does it stay that way in
the 18 psi range?

He's certainly correct about the pesky stickers, I lost my first set
of tubes to them before I got them all out.


Eric (chicago)




On Sep 15, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Brian Crombie wrote:


> The following e-mail is a response from the "answer guy" at Diamond
> Back Classic Tires. I put the inner tube question to him last week
> and this is what he has to say. He states that they have asked Myth
> Busters to perform some tests. I officially nominate Dave Derer to
> provide an Amphicar with a custom roll cage to help settle this
> argument. Any seconds on this notion?
>
>
>
> Brian,
>
> I have heard both sides of this argument. It appears to me they
> Amphicar owners are split about 50/50 on this issue of running
> tubes. The last rationale I heard for running tubes on an Amphicar
> was that if the current caused the car to drift sideways and the
> tires hit bottom, the tire could unseat and you would be unable to
> drive out of the water onto land with a flat tire. I am sure that
> it would difficult if not impossible to change a tire while afloat.
>
> In the quote you give from the forum the poster states " I just
> went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for safety
> reasons". He doesn't say who told him this. I have seen a statement
> in the catalog of a well known classic tire company as follows -
> "Older rims that were originally designed for bias-ply tires may
> crack if used with modern radial tires." Radial tires according to
> the United States Department of Transportation put less stress on a
> rim than does a bias ply tire. So, if that company is the one that
> came up with this, I would take it with a grain of salt.
>
> All I can add to the conversation is that there is a lot myths and
> old wives tales floating around in the car collector community.
> Some of them appear to be spread by people that want to sell wheels
> or tubes, others by people that are sincere but have been "taken
> in" by people they had confidence in.
>
> Several facts that may help you make up your mind as to which side
> you fall on:
>
> 1. When tubeless tires were introduced, they were designed to run
> on the thousands if not millions of cars that were currently on the
> road without requiring the purchase of new rims.
>
> 2. If you put a tube in a modern tubeless radial tire, you will
> need to remove the small paper stickers on the inside of the tire
> (these are stickers placed in the tire by the mfg for inventory
> control or quality control reasons) You will also need to put some
> talcum powder in the tire with the tubes. If this is not done, the
> tube could begin leaking air within 50 miles.
>
> Unlike bias ply tires with their thick stiff sidewall, radial tires
> are designed to have sidewalls that flex to allow the tread to
> remain in complete contact with the road. This flexing is what
> causes an excessive amount of rubbing between the tubeless tire's
> inner lining and the tube. I guess you can say that tubeless tires
> are not designed for tubes.
>
> We sell radial tubes for the people that need to run tubes, so I
> will be glad to sell you some if you would feel safer with tubes in
> your tires. The radial tubes are $12.50 each when bought with a set
> of our tires. If you decide to run tubes, be sure to remove the
> paper stickers on the inside of the tires and to use talcum powder.
> If I owned a Amphicar I would put tubeless radial tires on it
> without tubes. I would run a minimum of 35 psi.
>
>
> I have talked with several car owners that have experienced the
> leaking tubes when they put tubes in their radial tires because
> they are running wire wheels that will not hold air. Two claimed
> they had a flat tire within 50 miles. The leaks were caused by the
> paper stickers in the tires. I have never talked to a car owner
> that has had a tubeless tire "unseat from the rim" during an
> evasive action. Not saying that it hasn't happened, just that the
> people I have heard claiming this always say it happened to a
> friend of a friend of their third cousin twice removed - or
> somethihg similar. We have submitted a request to Myth Busters to
> test tubeless radail tires on older rims that came with tube type
> bias ply tires to separate the fact from the fiction.
>
> Removing those little paper stickers is quite an ordeal. With most
> of them, you have to use a dremel tool with a small wire brush to
> remove the sticker. Since you can't even feel the sticker with you
> finger tips, it most be the difference in friction between the
> slick paper and the rubber inner liner that causes the break in the
> tube.
>
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Crombie [mailto:Brian.Crombie@poly-tex.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 1:41 PM
> To: info@dbtires.com
> Subject: A need for inner tubes?
>
> Richard,
> The forum post below is a recent discussion regarding the need for
> inner tubes with any radial tire used on an Amphicar. The Amphicar
> rims apparently do not have a "bead lock" design which prevents a
> sudden air loss when the tire becomes highly stressed.
> I am kindly asking that you clarify a need or no need for an inner
> tube using your product on this type of rim.
> Many thanks for your input!
>
> Brian Crombie
> Faribault, Minnesota
> '64, '65, '67 Amphicar owner
> International Amphicar Owners Club member
> www.amphicar.com
> .ExternalClass { FONT-FAMILY: Verdana, Geneva, Arial, helvetica,
> sans-serif}.ExternalClass TABLE { }.ExternalClass TD { FONT-SIZE:
> 80%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana, Geneva, Arial, helvetica, sans-
> serif}.ExternalClass TH { FONT-SIZE: 80%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,
> Geneva, Arial, helvetica, sans-serif}.ExternalClass EC_alt2 { FONT-
> SIZE: 80%; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana, Geneva, Arial, helvetica, sans-
> serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff}
>
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by canitfloat
> I just went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for
> safety reasons. The design of the Amphicar rim is for tube type
> tires only and if you run tubeless tires on these rims the
> integrity of the seal could be lost when you least expect it
> causing instant deflation of the tire! Tubes cost about $10 ea.
> Because of their reputation, I got the Diamond back wide whites.
> Dont forget to blast, epoxy prime, 2k prime, wetsand and paint your
> rims 1st!
>
> YES! I can not stress this enough! Amphicar rims do not have a bead
> lock type rim. If you go tubeless and have to make a hard turn
> (evasive action) you stand a real good chance of rolling the tire
> off the rim. You could end up flipping the car. Just because they
> will hold air, does not make them tubless rims.
>
> TIP - Use an old tube to make a liner to cover the rim. Cut it so
> you have just the inside section left to line your rim, protecting
> the tube from rubbing on the rivits inside the rim. Keep a can of
> fix-a-flat with you too.
>
>
>
>
 
I was told I should run tubes if my rims were designed for tube type tires by Coker tire when i purchased a set of 4 Coker Classic radials for my 55 Chevy (that came new with tube tires) and by Diamond back when I bought a set of 4 Radials for my Amphicar. Yes, many dont run tubes and dont have any problems, but if theres a chance it could be a problem I would rather put the tubes in now and forget about it. Jack in Mass.
 

DavidC

Amphicar Expert
Blimey it's scary that a representative for a manufacturer should be talking such garbage ! Maybe he is just ignorant of the engineering of European cars. He should do some research and try spelling with the words tyre and crossply which are the non-American words for tire and biasply.

As Eric points out an Amphicar with front tyre pressure at 35psi is pretty much undriveable.

Amphicar wheels are same as Mercedes. Mercedes changed the rim design in about 1966 to add the rib to keep the tyre on. Tubeless tyres didn't appear before the mid 1970s and fitting a tube was still common at least 10 years after that.

As for "mythbusters" - I've seen that show on one of the satellite channels, a couple of blokes messing about in a shed - if he thinks that's a scientific experiment or that there is any validity in what they do beyond TV entertainment than he really is an idiot !

The accident reports are out there for vehicle roll overs caused by using tubeless tyres on rims designed for tubes. Amphicar is more at risk because of the high centre of gravity and the low front tyre pressure needed.

However Amphicar isn't (normally) driven aggressively and most owners cover very few road miles which certainly reduces the risk - and the risk will be acceptable for many, after all Amphicar has no ABS brakes, air bags, side impact protection, roll over bars and most Amphicars in the USA don't even have seatbelts. All these things are in the "risk" pot that the owner/driver needs to be aware of so they can then make their own decision about what to do - but that should be based on the facts, not the bowlucks (Saxon English word !) that this guy is talking.

David C

ps - quick search of Google spelling tyre the English english way and first result is this article from Australia

http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/Mitsubishi/Pajero/RollOver.html

"showing the result of tubeless tyres rolling off the rims in a sideways slide at about 70kph."


----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Crombie
To: david@manbus.com
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20162] Re: Radial tyres again!


The following e-mail is a response from the "answer guy" at Diamond Back Classic Tires. I put the inner tube question to him last week and this is what he has to say. He states that they have asked Myth Busters to perform some tests. I officially nominate Dave Derer to provide an Amphicar with a custom roll cage to help settle this argument. Any seconds on this notion?



Brian,

I have heard both sides of this argument. It appears to me they Amphicar owners are split about 50/50 on this issue of running tubes. The last rationale I heard for running tubes on an Amphicar was that if the current caused the car to drift sideways and the tires hit bottom, the tire could unseat and you would be unable to drive out of the water onto land with a flat tire. I am sure that it would difficult if not impossible to change a tire while afloat.

In the quote you give from the forum the poster states " I just went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for safety reasons". He doesn't say who told him this. I have seen a statement in the catalog of a well known classic tire company as follows - "Older rims that were originally designed for bias-ply tires may crack if used with modern radial tires." Radial tires according to the United States Department of Transportation put less stress on a rim than does a bias ply tire. So, if that company is the one that came up with this, I would take it with a grain of salt.

All I can add to the conversation is that there is a lot myths and old wives tales floating around in the car collector community. Some of them appear to be spread by people that want to sell wheels or tubes, others by people that are sincere but have been "taken in" by people they had confidence in.

Several facts that may help you make up your mind as to which side you fall on:

1. When tubeless tires were introduced, they were designed to run on the thousands if not millions of cars that were currently on the road without requiring the purchase of new rims.

2. If you put a tube in a modern tubeless radial tire, you will need to remove the small paper stickers on the inside of the tire (these are stickers placed in the tire by the mfg for inventory control or quality control reasons) You will also need to put some talcum powder in the tire with the tubes. If this is not done, the tube could begin leaking air within 50 miles.

Unlike bias ply tires with their thick stiff sidewall, radial tires are designed to have sidewalls that flex to allow the tread to remain in complete contact with the road. This flexing is what causes an excessive amount of rubbing between the tubeless tire's inner lining and the tube. I guess you can say that tubeless tires are not designed for tubes.

We sell radial tubes for the people that need to run tubes, so I will be glad to sell you some if you would feel safer with tubes in your tires. The radial tubes are $12.50 each when bought with a set of our tires. If you decide to run tubes, be sure to remove the paper stickers on the inside of the tires and to use talcum powder.
If I owned a Amphicar I would put tubeless radial tires on it without tubes. I would run a minimum of 35 psi.


I have talked with several car owners that have experienced the leaking tubes when they put tubes in their radial tires because they are running wire wheels that will not hold air. Two claimed they had a flat tire within 50 miles. The leaks were caused by the paper stickers in the tires. I have never talked to a car owner that has had a tubeless tire "unseat from the rim" during an evasive action. Not saying that it hasn't happened, just that the people I have heard claiming this always say it happened to a friend of a friend of their third cousin twice removed - or somethihg similar. We have submitted a request to Myth Busters to test tubeless radail tires on older rims that came with tube type bias ply tires to separate the fact from the fiction.

Removing those little paper stickers is quite an ordeal. With most of them, you have to use a dremel tool with a small wire brush to remove the sticker. Since you can't even feel the sticker with you finger tips, it most be the difference in friction between the slick paper and the rubber inner liner that causes the break in the tube.

Richard


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Crombie [mailto:Brian.Crombie@poly-tex.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 1:41 PM
To: info@dbtires.com
Subject: A need for inner tubes?


Richard,
The forum post below is a recent discussion regarding the need for inner tubes with any radial tire used on an Amphicar. The Amphicar rims apparently do not have a "bead lock" design which prevents a sudden air loss when the tire becomes highly stressed.
I am kindly asking that you clarify a need or no need for an inner tube using your product on this type of rim.
Many thanks for your input!

Brian Crombie
Faribault, Minnesota
'64, '65, '67 Amphicar owner
International Amphicar Owners Club member
www.amphicar.com
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canitfloat
I just went through this and was told that I must use Tubes for safety reasons. The design of the Amphicar rim is for tube type tires only and if you run tubeless tires on these rims the integrity of the seal could be lost when you least expect it causing instant deflation of the tire! Tubes cost about $10 ea. Because of their reputation, I got the Diamond back wide whites. Dont forget to blast, epoxy prime, 2k prime, wetsand and paint your rims 1st!

YES! I can not stress this enough! Amphicar rims do not have a bead lock type rim. If you go tubeless and have to make a hard turn (evasive action) you stand a real good chance of rolling the tire off the rim. You could end up flipping the car. Just because they will hold air, does not make them tubless rims.

TIP - Use an old tube to make a liner to cover the rim. Cut it so you have just the inside section left to line your rim, protecting the tube from rubbing on the rivits inside the rim. Keep a can of fix-a-flat with you too.
 

amphi_sc

Member
> If I owned a Amphicar I would put tubeless radial tires on it without tubes. I would run a minimum of 35 psi. ...

I think he's crazy. Lets see... 2300 lbs plus some gas, driver ... okay maybe 2600 pounds... most of it in the rear so lets say split 900/1400 lbs on front/rear axles... 450 each tire. I just measured my P175x80D 13's and have 4.75 x 5 inches of tread on the ground (with no people in the car)... and measuring with a low pressure gauge, I'm already over inflated having exactly 18 psi (Amphicar spec'd it at 14 psi)... so with my 18 psi in the tire that equals about 495 lbs as a cross check. .. A 4.75 x 5 foot print at 18psi is supporting about 475 lbs based om a crude ruler measurement, but seems to be in the ballpark range. So with his radials, he'd have about 13 sq inches of that tire foot print on the ground gripping the road! That ain't much surface area to maintain control with... turns, braking, etc....

Anyway, many opinions are floating around.
 

Midwest Amphicar

Worlds Largest Amphicar Destination
I officially nominate Dave Derer to provide an Amphicar with a custom roll cage to help settle this argument. Any seconds on this notion?

Brian I accept!! I will get cage built in Your green car that is currently here! Later Dave the Wave
 

mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
Am I missing something in this whole debate? $50.00 worth of tire tubes seems like a non-issue. OK, add to that an hours work to remove stickers.

Sorry honey, I totaled our $60,000 Amphicar and the kids are dead. But look on the bright side, I saved us 50 bucks!

Is there any good reason NOT to put the tubes in there even if you never need them?
 
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