Michigan native voyage

Discussion in 'General Amphicar Discussion' started by G_Zink_us@yahoo.com, Apr 10, 2001.

  1. G_Zink_us@yahoo.com
    Online

    I took my car in for the first time this past weekend. My plans were
    almost foiled because I found the lakes in mid-Michigan were still
    mostly frozen. I was not able to really drive it around as the lake I
    went in was only thawed to about 15' from the ramp but I was able to
    get floating, go in a few times, check out forward and reverse and
    get the thrill of driving in the water for the first time.
    Door seals and the rest of the body seals seem to be o.k. but it
    appears that those double lip trans seals are bad. After the swim,
    when going up hill, it felt like the clutch was slipping and there
    was a smell that seemed to me to be the clutch burning. I checked the
    trans oil and it appeared to be contaminated with water(thin and
    milky) but it was not overfull as I would expect. When I changed it,
    I made a dipstick and if anything, it seemed a little low so I have
    the following questions that I hope some of you fine people can
    answer.
    1) If the double lip seals are bad, why wouldn't I have leaked trans
    oil when driving on land. After putting Amsoil in a month ago, I did
    quite a bit of driving and would periodically check the oil and it
    was fine.
    2) I know the clutch is in the trans housing but does it make sense
    that if water entered the trans seals, it would be able to affect the
    clutch or do I have some other problem. I'm fairly sure it was the
    clutch that was slipping because no matter what I gear I put it in, I
    experienced the problem and after pulling the bilge plug and
    everthing was dry, it drove fine.
    3) Would it make any difference, i.e. would it be more prone to
    leaking because I had one rear wheel floating and the other on the
    ramp and I was going back and forth sideways across the ramp a lot?
    Would this unusual behavior somehow put stress on one seal and cause
    it to leak?
    4) On one side, the accordian type sleeve that covers the drive shaft
    is torn. Is this necessary to replace when I do the seals? I don't
    understand what it does except maybe protect the drive shaft from
    rusting?
    5) I plan to read every posting related to replacing these seals to
    learn how to do it but I would really appreciate any additonal advice
    or tips anyone would like to offer that they have found makes the job
    easier.

    Greg Z
    '67(white), Michigan
     
  2. Al Heath
    Online

    Al Heath Guest

    I'll stick my neck out and offer my 2 cents worth on the Oil / Water mix.

    As you mention that one "the accordian type sleeve that covers the drive
    shaft is torn", you might want to verify the slip joint on the shafts are
    actually free and move easily. If it is binding up, when the suspension
    drops when floating in the water, the drive shaft can come slightly out of
    the transmission, thus leaking water past the seal. Sitting normally with
    the car's weight, it pushes itself back into the transmission. Easy way
    to check is to jack up the car, loosen up the tunnel boot by the tranny and
    watch the end as it goes into the tranny. Applying some pressure on the
    u-joint yoke should make the axle back out of the tranny but when you
    release that artificial pressure, it should easily reseat itself. Also,
    raise and lower the wheel while watching the end that goes into the tranny
    ... it should not slide in and out by raising and lowering the wheel. If
    the slip joint is binding, then it is relatively easy to remove the entire
    axle / swing arm / hub assembly. Before doing that, you might want to
    verify that there is no play in the hub by pulling/pushing on the brake
    drum, also check for play where the swing arm attaches to the flange on the
    body. Although I can't imagine how that could contribute to water in the
    tranny, looseness there will cause other road handling problems. I think
    Amphipoda mentioned something a long time ago about some looseness with the
    hub/brake drum after doing some fancy sideways maneuvers while going down
    the boat ramp. Back to disassembly ... Usually when I'm unhooking the
    emergency brake cable to slide the axle out, I've already got the front
    seat out so I can unhook the cable(s) from the under front floor and under
    the rear seat, loosen the rubber brake booties so not to stretch or tear
    them and feed some cable back to hub to unhook it, and remove the 10mm bolt
    on the plastic guide on the backing plate. Remove the 1 bolt on the
    shock and the 6 bolts (17mm If I remember) on the swing arm flange and it
    should slide right out, (don't forget to disconnect the hydraulic line and
    feed the emergency brake cable back through the gromet on the swing arm.
    You might have a little vacuum to overcome as the suspension axle slides
    out, or then again you might not. By the way, don't mess with the pinch
    bolt and you have one less thing to worry about reassembling. Anyway, with
    the axle out, it's easy to inspect and clean up the slip joints from any
    old sand that might have found its way in. Also examine the u-joints
    carefully as you really don't want the inner joint getting worn and
    breaking ... the flopping axle can badly bend the metal tunnel or break off
    part of the flange on the tranny. I suppose it is also possible that the
    axle end that seals against the double lip oil seal has developed some
    corosion and is pitted. But you can easily spot that when you pull the
    axle out.

    As for changing the double lip seals, I've always changed mine after
    pulling the engine/tranny as one unit from the car. Takes me about a 1/2
    day each way, but if you already have to pull the axles anyway, the delta
    time isn't much more. and you get to check out the engine mounts real
    closely and drain the transmission of all the water out both land tranny
    plugs. However, if I remember correctly, Tommy in Tampa changed his seals
    through the axle tunnel. I never tried that approach as it seems I always
    was doing more ( mounts, hoses, etc....) and thus could justify pulling the
    engine/tranny to begin with. The double lip seals pop out pretty easily if
    you apply appropriate pressure. I used a lathe and turned down some "seal
    pushers" to drive them in evenly while maintaining pressure on the little
    spring(s). If doing it from through the tunnel, I guess the rod would have
    to be pretty long and would take another pair of hands to keep things lined
    up. If you separate the tranny from the engine, it probably wouldn't hurt
    to check or replace the 2-16-04 seal on the drive shaft at the clutch end
    of the transmission as that could leak oil onto the clutch. You can also
    check to see if you have a throw out bearing or an original disk. I've
    found it more difficult to re-engage the tranny to the engine inside the
    car as my body can't bend that way with any type of leverage, thus why I
    pull them both out as one unit. It makes for a very steep dive angle, but
    will clear everything. Also, when attaching the rear brakes, I find it
    much easier to remove the hub as my fat fingers just can't seem to hook it
    all up in the limitted space, but be warned, that hub has a very tight
    interference fit and I find it much easier to remove using the appropriate
    tool to pull it off the axle.

    Anyway, back to "no oil leaked out, so why'd water get it....". Oil is a
    little thicker and may not get past, but water flows a little easier. On
    the other hand, it could just be the axle pulling out from the transmission
    due to slip joints that aren't 100% free. Once I had an axle of the style
    with the sealed slip joint and rubber packing... (no boots) that had the
    spring push the end cap out and thus the spring was just resting on the
    outer u-joint and was essentially useless in applying the appropriate
    pressure on the slip joint to keep things in place when the suspension was
    fully dropped. But, it sounds like you don't have that style of axle.
    When replacing the boots on the more common axle, I used common NAPA CV
    Joint clamps. They flatten out pretty flat compared to using some other
    common clamp and don't cause a problem when suspension is hanging all the
    way down with the wheels turning in search of the boat ramp....

    Now, what's everybody else's idea. Am I always doing it the hard way? And
    my terminology is probably all messed up as I write software all day and
    only get greasy hands as a hobby.

    Al Heath
    www.amphicar.net/aboat2
     
  3. Greg
    Online

    Greg Guest

    Re: Re: Michigan native voyage

    Al,
    Thanks for the advice. I too write software by day so
    I know how you feel though I do have some mechanical
    experience from working on ordinary "land cruisers"
    over the years and from go-cart racing days long ago;
    but I'm certainly no mechanical expert which is why
    I'm not too proud to ask. Thanks again.

    --- Al Heath <aheath@us.ibm.com> wrote:
    > I'll stick my neck out and offer my 2 cents worth on
    > the Oil / Water mix.
    >
    > As you mention that one "the accordian type sleeve
    > that covers the drive
    > shaft is torn", you might want to verify the slip
    > joint on the shafts are
    > actually free and move easily. If it is binding up,
    > when the suspension
    > drops when floating in the water, the drive shaft
    > can come slightly out of
    > the transmission, thus leaking water past the seal.
    > Sitting normally with
    > the car's weight, it pushes itself back into the
    > transmission. Easy way
    > to check is to jack up the car, loosen up the tunnel
    > boot by the tranny and
    > watch the end as it goes into the tranny. Applying
    > some pressure on the
    > u-joint yoke should make the axle back out of the
    > tranny but when you
    > release that artificial pressure, it should easily
    > reseat itself. Also,
    > raise and lower the wheel while watching the end
    > that goes into the tranny
    > ... it should not slide in and out by raising and
    > lowering the wheel. If
    > the slip joint is binding, then it is relatively
    > easy to remove the entire
    > axle / swing arm / hub assembly. Before doing that,
    > you might want to
    > verify that there is no play in the hub by
    > pulling/pushing on the brake
    > drum, also check for play where the swing arm
    > attaches to the flange on the
    > body. Although I can't imagine how that could
    > contribute to water in the
    > tranny, looseness there will cause other road
    > handling problems. I think
    > Amphipoda mentioned something a long time ago about
    > some looseness with the
    > hub/brake drum after doing some fancy sideways
    > maneuvers while going down
    > the boat ramp. Back to disassembly ... Usually when
    > I'm unhooking the
    > emergency brake cable to slide the axle out, I've
    > already got the front
    > seat out so I can unhook the cable(s) from the under
    > front floor and under
    > the rear seat, loosen the rubber brake booties so
    > not to stretch or tear
    > them and feed some cable back to hub to unhook it,
    > and remove the 10mm bolt
    > on the plastic guide on the backing plate.
    > Remove the 1 bolt on the
    > shock and the 6 bolts (17mm If I remember) on the
    > swing arm flange and it
    > should slide right out, (don't forget to disconnect
    > the hydraulic line and
    > feed the emergency brake cable back through the
    > gromet on the swing arm.
    > You might have a little vacuum to overcome as the
    > suspension axle slides
    > out, or then again you might not. By the way, don't
    > mess with the pinch
    > bolt and you have one less thing to worry about
    > reassembling. Anyway, with
    > the axle out, it's easy to inspect and clean up the
    > slip joints from any
    > old sand that might have found its way in. Also
    > examine the u-joints
    > carefully as you really don't want the inner joint
    > getting worn and
    > breaking ... the flopping axle can badly bend the
    > metal tunnel or break off
    > part of the flange on the tranny. I suppose it is
    > also possible that the
    > axle end that seals against the double lip oil seal
    > has developed some
    > corosion and is pitted. But you can easily spot
    > that when you pull the
    > axle out.
    >
    > As for changing the double lip seals, I've always
    > changed mine after
    > pulling the engine/tranny as one unit from the car.
    > Takes me about a 1/2
    > day each way, but if you already have to pull the
    > axles anyway, the delta
    > time isn't much more. and you get to check out the
    > engine mounts real
    > closely and drain the transmission of all the water
    > out both land tranny
    > plugs. However, if I remember correctly, Tommy in
    > Tampa changed his seals
    > through the axle tunnel. I never tried that
    > approach as it seems I always
    > was doing more ( mounts, hoses, etc....) and thus
    > could justify pulling the
    > engine/tranny to begin with. The double lip seals
    > pop out pretty easily if
    > you apply appropriate pressure. I used a lathe and
    > turned down some "seal
    > pushers" to drive them in evenly while maintaining
    > pressure on the little
    > spring(s). If doing it from through the tunnel, I
    > guess the rod would have
    > to be pretty long and would take another pair of
    > hands to keep things lined
    > up. If you separate the tranny from the engine, it
    > probably wouldn't hurt
    > to check or replace the 2-16-04 seal on the drive
    > shaft at the clutch end
    > of the transmission as that could leak oil onto the
    > clutch. You can also
    > check to see if you have a throw out bearing or an
    > original disk. I've
    > found it more difficult to re-engage the tranny to
    > the engine inside the
    > car as my body can't bend that way with any type of
    > leverage, thus why I
    > pull them both out as one unit. It makes for a
    > very steep dive angle, but
    > will clear everything. Also, when attaching the
    > rear brakes, I find it
    > much easier to remove the hub as my fat fingers just
    > can't seem to hook it
    > all up in the limitted space, but be warned, that
    > hub has a very tight
    > interference fit and I find it much easier to remove
    > using the appropriate
    > tool to pull it off the axle.
    >
    > Anyway, back to "no oil leaked out, so why'd water
    > get it....". Oil is a
    > little thicker and may not get past, but water flows
    > a little easier. On
    > the other hand, it could just be the axle pulling
    > out from the transmission
    > due to slip joints that aren't 100% free. Once I
    > had an axle of the style
    > with the sealed slip joint and rubber packing... (no
    > boots) that had the
    > spring push the end cap out and thus the spring was
    > just resting on the
    > outer u-joint and was essentially useless in
    > applying the appropriate
    > pressure on the slip joint to keep things in place
    > when the suspension was
    > fully dropped. But, it sounds like you don't have
    > that style of axle.
    > When replacing the boots on the more common axle, I
    > used common NAPA CV
    > Joint clamps. They flatten out pretty flat compared
    > to using some other
    > common clamp and don't cause a problem when
    > suspension is hanging all the
    > way down with the wheels turning in search of the
    > boat ramp....
    >
    > Now, what's everybody else's idea. Am I always
    > doing it the hard way? And
    > my terminology is probably all messed up as I write
    > software all day and
    > only get greasy hands as a hobby.
    >
    > Al Heath
    > www.amphicar.net/aboat2
    >
    >
     
  4. Moses, Scott, Civ
    Online

    RE: Re: Michigan native voyage

    I could not have put it better myself. well done!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Al Heath [mailto:aheath@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:14 PM
    To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Michigan native voyage


    I'll stick my neck out and offer my 2 cents worth on the Oil / Water
    mix.

    As you mention that one "the accordian type sleeve that covers the drive
    shaft is torn", you might want to verify the slip joint on the shafts
    are
    actually free and move easily. If it is binding up, when the suspension
    drops when floating in the water, the drive shaft can come slightly out
    of
    the transmission, thus leaking water past the seal. Sitting normally
    with
    the car's weight, it pushes itself back into the transmission. Easy
    way
    to check is to jack up the car, loosen up the tunnel boot by the tranny
    and
    watch the end as it goes into the tranny. Applying some pressure on the
    u-joint yoke should make the axle back out of the tranny but when you
    release that artificial pressure, it should easily reseat itself. Also,
    raise and lower the wheel while watching the end that goes into the
    tranny
    ... it should not slide in and out by raising and lowering the wheel.
    If
    the slip joint is binding, then it is relatively easy to remove the
    entire
    axle / swing arm / hub assembly. Before doing that, you might want to
    verify that there is no play in the hub by pulling/pushing on the brake
    drum, also check for play where the swing arm attaches to the flange on
    the
    body. Although I can't imagine how that could contribute to water in
    the
    tranny, looseness there will cause other road handling problems. I
    think
    Amphipoda mentioned something a long time ago about some looseness with
    the
    hub/brake drum after doing some fancy sideways maneuvers while going
    down
    the boat ramp. Back to disassembly ... Usually when I'm unhooking the
    emergency brake cable to slide the axle out, I've already got the front
    seat out so I can unhook the cable(s) from the under front floor and
    under
    the rear seat, loosen the rubber brake booties so not to stretch or tear
    them and feed some cable back to hub to unhook it, and remove the 10mm
    bolt
    on the plastic guide on the backing plate. Remove the 1 bolt on the
    shock and the 6 bolts (17mm If I remember) on the swing arm flange and
    it
    should slide right out, (don't forget to disconnect the hydraulic line
    and
    feed the emergency brake cable back through the gromet on the swing arm.
    You might have a little vacuum to overcome as the suspension axle slides
    out, or then again you might not. By the way, don't mess with the pinch
    bolt and you have one less thing to worry about reassembling. Anyway,
    with
    the axle out, it's easy to inspect and clean up the slip joints from any
    old sand that might have found its way in. Also examine the u-joints
    carefully as you really don't want the inner joint getting worn and
    breaking ... the flopping axle can badly bend the metal tunnel or break
    off
    part of the flange on the tranny. I suppose it is also possible that
    the
    axle end that seals against the double lip oil seal has developed some
    corosion and is pitted. But you can easily spot that when you pull the
    axle out.

    As for changing the double lip seals, I've always changed mine after
    pulling the engine/tranny as one unit from the car. Takes me about a
    1/2
    day each way, but if you already have to pull the axles anyway, the
    delta
    time isn't much more. and you get to check out the engine mounts real
    closely and drain the transmission of all the water out both land tranny
    plugs. However, if I remember correctly, Tommy in Tampa changed his
    seals
    through the axle tunnel. I never tried that approach as it seems I
    always
    was doing more ( mounts, hoses, etc....) and thus could justify pulling
    the
    engine/tranny to begin with. The double lip seals pop out pretty easily
    if
    you apply appropriate pressure. I used a lathe and turned down some
    "seal
    pushers" to drive them in evenly while maintaining pressure on the
    little
    spring(s). If doing it from through the tunnel, I guess the rod would
    have
    to be pretty long and would take another pair of hands to keep things
    lined
    up. If you separate the tranny from the engine, it probably wouldn't
    hurt
    to check or replace the 2-16-04 seal on the drive shaft at the clutch
    end
    of the transmission as that could leak oil onto the clutch. You can
    also
    check to see if you have a throw out bearing or an original disk. I've
    found it more difficult to re-engage the tranny to the engine inside the
    car as my body can't bend that way with any type of leverage, thus why I
    pull them both out as one unit. It makes for a very steep dive angle,
    but
    will clear everything. Also, when attaching the rear brakes, I find it
    much easier to remove the hub as my fat fingers just can't seem to hook
    it
    all up in the limitted space, but be warned, that hub has a very tight
    interference fit and I find it much easier to remove using the
    appropriate
    tool to pull it off the axle.

    Anyway, back to "no oil leaked out, so why'd water get it....". Oil is
    a
    little thicker and may not get past, but water flows a little easier.
    On
    the other hand, it could just be the axle pulling out from the
    transmission
    due to slip joints that aren't 100% free. Once I had an axle of the
    style
    with the sealed slip joint and rubber packing... (no boots) that had the
    spring push the end cap out and thus the spring was just resting on the
    outer u-joint and was essentially useless in applying the appropriate
    pressure on the slip joint to keep things in place when the suspension
    was
    fully dropped. But, it sounds like you don't have that style of axle.
    When replacing the boots on the more common axle, I used common NAPA CV
    Joint clamps. They flatten out pretty flat compared to using some other
    common clamp and don't cause a problem when suspension is hanging all
    the
    way down with the wheels turning in search of the boat ramp....

    Now, what's everybody else's idea. Am I always doing it the hard way?
    And
    my terminology is probably all messed up as I write software all day and
    only get greasy hands as a hobby.

    Al Heath
    www.amphicar.net/aboat2


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