Michigan native voyage

[G_Zink_us@yahoo.com]

I took my car in for the first time this past weekend. My plans were
almost foiled because I found the lakes in mid-Michigan were still
mostly frozen. I was not able to really drive it around as the lake I
went in was only thawed to about 15' from the ramp but I was able to
get floating, go in a few times, check out forward and reverse and
get the thrill of driving in the water for the first time.
Door seals and the rest of the body seals seem to be o.k. but it
appears that those double lip trans seals are bad. After the swim,
when going up hill, it felt like the clutch was slipping and there
was a smell that seemed to me to be the clutch burning. I checked the
trans oil and it appeared to be contaminated with water(thin and
milky) but it was not overfull as I would expect. When I changed it,
I made a dipstick and if anything, it seemed a little low so I have
the following questions that I hope some of you fine people can
answer.
1) If the double lip seals are bad, why wouldn't I have leaked trans
oil when driving on land. After putting Amsoil in a month ago, I did
quite a bit of driving and would periodically check the oil and it
was fine.
2) I know the clutch is in the trans housing but does it make sense
that if water entered the trans seals, it would be able to affect the
clutch or do I have some other problem. I'm fairly sure it was the
clutch that was slipping because no matter what I gear I put it in, I
experienced the problem and after pulling the bilge plug and
everthing was dry, it drove fine.
3) Would it make any difference, i.e. would it be more prone to
leaking because I had one rear wheel floating and the other on the
ramp and I was going back and forth sideways across the ramp a lot?
Would this unusual behavior somehow put stress on one seal and cause
it to leak?
4) On one side, the accordian type sleeve that covers the drive shaft
is torn. Is this necessary to replace when I do the seals? I don't
understand what it does except maybe protect the drive shaft from
rusting?
5) I plan to read every posting related to replacing these seals to
learn how to do it but I would really appreciate any additonal advice
or tips anyone would like to offer that they have found makes the job
easier.

Greg Z
'67(white), Michigan

 

[Al Heath]

I'll stick my neck out and offer my 2 cents worth on the Oil / Water mix.

As you mention that one "the accordian type sleeve that covers the drive
shaft is torn", you might want to verify the slip joint on the shafts are
actually free and move easily. If it is binding up, when the suspension
drops when floating in the water, the drive shaft can come slightly out of
the transmission, thus leaking water past the seal. Sitting normally with
the car's weight, it pushes itself back into the transmission. Easy way
to check is to jack up the car, loosen up the tunnel boot by the tranny and
watch the end as it goes into the tranny. Applying some pressure on the
u-joint yoke should make the axle back out of the tranny but when you
release that artificial pressure, it should easily reseat itself. Also,
raise and lower the wheel while watching the end that goes into the tranny
... it should not slide in and out by raising and lowering the wheel. If
the slip joint is binding, then it is relatively easy to remove the entire
axle / swing arm / hub assembly. Before doing that, you might want to
verify that there is no play in the hub by pulling/pushing on the brake
drum, also check for play where the swing arm attaches to the flange on the
body. Although I can't imagine how that could contribute to water in the
tranny, looseness there will cause other road handling problems. I think
Amphipoda mentioned something a long time ago about some looseness with the
hub/brake drum after doing some fancy sideways maneuvers while going down
the boat ramp. Back to disassembly ... Usually when I'm unhooking the
emergency brake cable to slide the axle out, I've already got the front
seat out so I can unhook the cable(s) from the under front floor and under
the rear seat, loosen the rubber brake booties so not to stretch or tear
them and feed some cable back to hub to unhook it, and remove the 10mm bolt
on the plastic guide on the backing plate. Remove the 1 bolt on the
shock and the 6 bolts (17mm If I remember) on the swing arm flange and it
should slide right out, (don't forget to disconnect the hydraulic line and
feed the emergency brake cable back through the gromet on the swing arm.
You might have a little vacuum to overcome as the suspension axle slides
out, or then again you might not. By the way, don't mess with the pinch
bolt and you have one less thing to worry about reassembling. Anyway, with
the axle out, it's easy to inspect and clean up the slip joints from any
old sand that might have found its way in. Also examine the u-joints
carefully as you really don't want the inner joint getting worn and
breaking ... the flopping axle can badly bend the metal tunnel or break off
part of the flange on the tranny. I suppose it is also possible that the
axle end that seals against the double lip oil seal has developed some
corosion and is pitted. But you can easily spot that when you pull the
axle out.

As for changing the double lip seals, I've always changed mine after
pulling the engine/tranny as one unit from the car. Takes me about a 1/2
day each way, but if you already have to pull the axles anyway, the delta
time isn't much more. and you get to check out the engine mounts real
closely and drain the transmission of all the water out both land tranny
plugs. However, if I remember correctly, Tommy in Tampa changed his seals
through the axle tunnel. I never tried that approach as it seems I always
was doing more ( mounts, hoses, etc....) and thus could justify pulling the
engine/tranny to begin with. The double lip seals pop out pretty easily if
you apply appropriate pressure. I used a lathe and turned down some "seal
pushers" to drive them in evenly while maintaining pressure on the little
spring(s). If doing it from through the tunnel, I guess the rod would have
to be pretty long and would take another pair of hands to keep things lined
up. If you separate the tranny from the engine, it probably wouldn't hurt
to check or replace the 2-16-04 seal on the drive shaft at the clutch end
of the transmission as that could leak oil onto the clutch. You can also
check to see if you have a throw out bearing or an original disk. I've
found it more difficult to re-engage the tranny to the engine inside the
car as my body can't bend that way with any type of leverage, thus why I
pull them both out as one unit. It makes for a very steep dive angle, but
will clear everything. Also, when attaching the rear brakes, I find it
much easier to remove the hub as my fat fingers just can't seem to hook it
all up in the limitted space, but be warned, that hub has a very tight
interference fit and I find it much easier to remove using the appropriate
tool to pull it off the axle.

Anyway, back to "no oil leaked out, so why'd water get it....". Oil is a
little thicker and may not get past, but water flows a little easier. On
the other hand, it could just be the axle pulling out from the transmission
due to slip joints that aren't 100% free. Once I had an axle of the style
with the sealed slip joint and rubber packing... (no boots) that had the
spring push the end cap out and thus the spring was just resting on the
outer u-joint and was essentially useless in applying the appropriate
pressure on the slip joint to keep things in place when the suspension was
fully dropped. But, it sounds like you don't have that style of axle.
When replacing the boots on the more common axle, I used common NAPA CV
Joint clamps. They flatten out pretty flat compared to using some other
common clamp and don't cause a problem when suspension is hanging all the
way down with the wheels turning in search of the boat ramp....

Now, what's everybody else's idea. Am I always doing it the hard way? And
my terminology is probably all messed up as I write software all day and
only get greasy hands as a hobby.

Al Heath
www.amphicar.net/aboat2

 

[Greg]

Re: Re: Michigan native voyage

Al,
Thanks for the advice. I too write software by day so
I know how you feel though I do have some mechanical
experience from working on ordinary "land cruisers"
over the years and from go-cart racing days long ago;
but I'm certainly no mechanical expert which is why
I'm not too proud to ask. Thanks again.

--- Al Heath <aheath@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> I'll stick my neck out and offer my 2 cents worth on
> the Oil / Water mix.
>
> As you mention that one "the accordian type sleeve
> that covers the drive
> shaft is torn", you might want to verify the slip
> joint on the shafts are
> actually free and move easily. If it is binding up,
> when the suspension
> drops when floating in the water, the drive shaft
> can come slightly out of
> the transmission, thus leaking water past the seal.
> Sitting normally with
> the car's weight, it pushes itself back into the
> transmission. Easy way
> to check is to jack up the car, loosen up the tunnel
> boot by the tranny and
> watch the end as it goes into the tranny. Applying
> some pressure on the
> u-joint yoke should make the axle back out of the
> tranny but when you
> release that artificial pressure, it should easily
> reseat itself. Also,
> raise and lower the wheel while watching the end
> that goes into the tranny
> ... it should not slide in and out by raising and
> lowering the wheel. If
> the slip joint is binding, then it is relatively
> easy to remove the entire
> axle / swing arm / hub assembly. Before doing that,
> you might want to
> verify that there is no play in the hub by
> pulling/pushing on the brake
> drum, also check for play where the swing arm
> attaches to the flange on the
> body. Although I can't imagine how that could
> contribute to water in the
> tranny, looseness there will cause other road
> handling problems. I think
> Amphipoda mentioned something a long time ago about
> some looseness with the
> hub/brake drum after doing some fancy sideways
> maneuvers while going down
> the boat ramp. Back to disassembly ... Usually when
> I'm unhooking the
> emergency brake cable to slide the axle out, I've
> already got the front
> seat out so I can unhook the cable(s) from the under
> front floor and under
> the rear seat, loosen the rubber brake booties so
> not to stretch or tear
> them and feed some cable back to hub to unhook it,
> and remove the 10mm bolt
> on the plastic guide on the backing plate.
> Remove the 1 bolt on the
> shock and the 6 bolts (17mm If I remember) on the
> swing arm flange and it
> should slide right out, (don't forget to disconnect
> the hydraulic line and
> feed the emergency brake cable back through the
> gromet on the swing arm.
> You might have a little vacuum to overcome as the
> suspension axle slides
> out, or then again you might not. By the way, don't
> mess with the pinch
> bolt and you have one less thing to worry about
> reassembling. Anyway, with
> the axle out, it's easy to inspect and clean up the
> slip joints from any
> old sand that might have found its way in. Also
> examine the u-joints
> carefully as you really don't want the inner joint
> getting worn and
> breaking ... the flopping axle can badly bend the
> metal tunnel or break off
> part of the flange on the tranny. I suppose it is
> also possible that the
> axle end that seals against the double lip oil seal
> has developed some
> corosion and is pitted. But you can easily spot
> that when you pull the
> axle out.
>
> As for changing the double lip seals, I've always
> changed mine after
> pulling the engine/tranny as one unit from the car.
> Takes me about a 1/2
> day each way, but if you already have to pull the
> axles anyway, the delta
> time isn't much more. and you get to check out the
> engine mounts real
> closely and drain the transmission of all the water
> out both land tranny
> plugs. However, if I remember correctly, Tommy in
> Tampa changed his seals
> through the axle tunnel. I never tried that
> approach as it seems I always
> was doing more ( mounts, hoses, etc....) and thus
> could justify pulling the
> engine/tranny to begin with. The double lip seals
> pop out pretty easily if
> you apply appropriate pressure. I used a lathe and
> turned down some "seal
> pushers" to drive them in evenly while maintaining
> pressure on the little
> spring(s). If doing it from through the tunnel, I
> guess the rod would have
> to be pretty long and would take another pair of
> hands to keep things lined
> up. If you separate the tranny from the engine, it
> probably wouldn't hurt
> to check or replace the 2-16-04 seal on the drive
> shaft at the clutch end
> of the transmission as that could leak oil onto the
> clutch. You can also
> check to see if you have a throw out bearing or an
> original disk. I've
> found it more difficult to re-engage the tranny to
> the engine inside the
> car as my body can't bend that way with any type of
> leverage, thus why I
> pull them both out as one unit. It makes for a
> very steep dive angle, but
> will clear everything. Also, when attaching the
> rear brakes, I find it
> much easier to remove the hub as my fat fingers just
> can't seem to hook it
> all up in the limitted space, but be warned, that
> hub has a very tight
> interference fit and I find it much easier to remove
> using the appropriate
> tool to pull it off the axle.
>
> Anyway, back to "no oil leaked out, so why'd water
> get it....". Oil is a
> little thicker and may not get past, but water flows
> a little easier. On
> the other hand, it could just be the axle pulling
> out from the transmission
> due to slip joints that aren't 100% free. Once I
> had an axle of the style
> with the sealed slip joint and rubber packing... (no
> boots) that had the
> spring push the end cap out and thus the spring was
> just resting on the
> outer u-joint and was essentially useless in
> applying the appropriate
> pressure on the slip joint to keep things in place
> when the suspension was
> fully dropped. But, it sounds like you don't have
> that style of axle.
> When replacing the boots on the more common axle, I
> used common NAPA CV
> Joint clamps. They flatten out pretty flat compared
> to using some other
> common clamp and don't cause a problem when
> suspension is hanging all the
> way down with the wheels turning in search of the
> boat ramp....
>
> Now, what's everybody else's idea. Am I always
> doing it the hard way? And
> my terminology is probably all messed up as I write
> software all day and
> only get greasy hands as a hobby.
>
> Al Heath
> www.amphicar.net/aboat2
>
>

 

[Moses, Scott, Civ]

RE: Re: Michigan native voyage

I could not have put it better myself. well done!

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Heath [mailto:aheath@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:14 PM
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Michigan native voyage


I'll stick my neck out and offer my 2 cents worth on the Oil / Water
mix.

As you mention that one "the accordian type sleeve that covers the drive
shaft is torn", you might want to verify the slip joint on the shafts
are
actually free and move easily. If it is binding up, when the suspension
drops when floating in the water, the drive shaft can come slightly out
of
the transmission, thus leaking water past the seal. Sitting normally
with
the car's weight, it pushes itself back into the transmission. Easy
way
to check is to jack up the car, loosen up the tunnel boot by the tranny
and
watch the end as it goes into the tranny. Applying some pressure on the
u-joint yoke should make the axle back out of the tranny but when you
release that artificial pressure, it should easily reseat itself. Also,
raise and lower the wheel while watching the end that goes into the
tranny
... it should not slide in and out by raising and lowering the wheel.
If
the slip joint is binding, then it is relatively easy to remove the
entire
axle / swing arm / hub assembly. Before doing that, you might want to
verify that there is no play in the hub by pulling/pushing on the brake
drum, also check for play where the swing arm attaches to the flange on
the
body. Although I can't imagine how that could contribute to water in
the
tranny, looseness there will cause other road handling problems. I
think
Amphipoda mentioned something a long time ago about some looseness with
the
hub/brake drum after doing some fancy sideways maneuvers while going
down
the boat ramp. Back to disassembly ... Usually when I'm unhooking the
emergency brake cable to slide the axle out, I've already got the front
seat out so I can unhook the cable(s) from the under front floor and
under
the rear seat, loosen the rubber brake booties so not to stretch or tear
them and feed some cable back to hub to unhook it, and remove the 10mm
bolt
on the plastic guide on the backing plate. Remove the 1 bolt on the
shock and the 6 bolts (17mm If I remember) on the swing arm flange and
it
should slide right out, (don't forget to disconnect the hydraulic line
and
feed the emergency brake cable back through the gromet on the swing arm.
You might have a little vacuum to overcome as the suspension axle slides
out, or then again you might not. By the way, don't mess with the pinch
bolt and you have one less thing to worry about reassembling. Anyway,
with
the axle out, it's easy to inspect and clean up the slip joints from any
old sand that might have found its way in. Also examine the u-joints
carefully as you really don't want the inner joint getting worn and
breaking ... the flopping axle can badly bend the metal tunnel or break
off
part of the flange on the tranny. I suppose it is also possible that
the
axle end that seals against the double lip oil seal has developed some
corosion and is pitted. But you can easily spot that when you pull the
axle out.

As for changing the double lip seals, I've always changed mine after
pulling the engine/tranny as one unit from the car. Takes me about a
1/2
day each way, but if you already have to pull the axles anyway, the
delta
time isn't much more. and you get to check out the engine mounts real
closely and drain the transmission of all the water out both land tranny
plugs. However, if I remember correctly, Tommy in Tampa changed his
seals
through the axle tunnel. I never tried that approach as it seems I
always
was doing more ( mounts, hoses, etc....) and thus could justify pulling
the
engine/tranny to begin with. The double lip seals pop out pretty easily
if
you apply appropriate pressure. I used a lathe and turned down some
"seal
pushers" to drive them in evenly while maintaining pressure on the
little
spring(s). If doing it from through the tunnel, I guess the rod would
have
to be pretty long and would take another pair of hands to keep things
lined
up. If you separate the tranny from the engine, it probably wouldn't
hurt
to check or replace the 2-16-04 seal on the drive shaft at the clutch
end
of the transmission as that could leak oil onto the clutch. You can
also
check to see if you have a throw out bearing or an original disk. I've
found it more difficult to re-engage the tranny to the engine inside the
car as my body can't bend that way with any type of leverage, thus why I
pull them both out as one unit. It makes for a very steep dive angle,
but
will clear everything. Also, when attaching the rear brakes, I find it
much easier to remove the hub as my fat fingers just can't seem to hook
it
all up in the limitted space, but be warned, that hub has a very tight
interference fit and I find it much easier to remove using the
appropriate
tool to pull it off the axle.

Anyway, back to "no oil leaked out, so why'd water get it....". Oil is
a
little thicker and may not get past, but water flows a little easier.
On
the other hand, it could just be the axle pulling out from the
transmission
due to slip joints that aren't 100% free. Once I had an axle of the
style
with the sealed slip joint and rubber packing... (no boots) that had the
spring push the end cap out and thus the spring was just resting on the
outer u-joint and was essentially useless in applying the appropriate
pressure on the slip joint to keep things in place when the suspension
was
fully dropped. But, it sounds like you don't have that style of axle.
When replacing the boots on the more common axle, I used common NAPA CV
Joint clamps. They flatten out pretty flat compared to using some other
common clamp and don't cause a problem when suspension is hanging all
the
way down with the wheels turning in search of the boat ramp....

Now, what's everybody else's idea. Am I always doing it the hard way?
And
my terminology is probably all messed up as I write software all day and
only get greasy hands as a hobby.

Al Heath
www.amphicar.net/aboat2


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