Fuel

G

Gerald Okins

Guest
As I filled up for the last time this year, I wondered what kind of fuel
everyone else used.
I put in high octane (91) unleaded, then add a jug of instead-o-lead (or similar
product).
I have occasionally added an octane booster. I am too young to remember what
type of fuel was
around in the 60's. Am I wasting money on high octane and additives?

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J

John Bevins

Guest
--- In amphicar-lovers@egroups.com, Gerald Okins <okeyojr@m...> wrote:
>
>
> As I filled up for the last time this year, I wondered what kind of
fuel everyone else used.
> I put in high octane (91) unleaded, then add a jug of instead-o-
lead (or similar product).
> I have occasionally added an octane booster. I am too young to
remember what type of fuel was
> around in the 60's. Am I wasting money on high octane and
additives?

I wouldn't add any octane booster as the Herald engine doesn't really
need the extra punch. The low to mid-grade pump gas is plenty good
enuf, unless you are having detonation (pinging) problems. Too high
octane can do damage as well.

The lead additive is a must as the valve seats are not hardened (as
far as I know) and the lead will do it's job in lubricating them and
preventing them from being fried. You can have your heads done with
hardnened seats and run unleaded fuel without a problem.

Cap'n John
Two and a half '64s
 
K

Ken Chambers

Guest
With regard to fuel and octane ratings, the common misconception is that a
higher octane fuel
produces more power. It does not. High compression engines require a slower
burning fuel to
prevent destructive detonation and pre ignition. That's what octane additives
do, they slow down
the flame front for a smoother burn. Energy content of a unit of gasoline
remains basically the
same whether it's regular or higher octane. As a matter of fact, the additives
in the fuel that
increase octane ratings generally have a lower energy content than that of
gasoline, thus
lowering the total energy of a gallon of premium fuel. The oil companies love
the additional
revenue from that higher priced "super premium" fuel. If your engine doesn't
require it, you're
just wasting your money.

For all you motor heads out there wanting to know everything about gasoline and
fuels, click on
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/7026/octane1.html
A very comprehensive site I just found. Here's a section addressing the octane
issue;

6.13 Can higher octane fuels give me more power?

On modern engines with sophisticated engine management systems, the engine
can operate efficiently on fuels of a wider range of octane rating, but there
remains an optimum octane for the engine under specific driving conditions.
Older cars without such systems are more restricted in their choice of fuel,
as the engine can not automatically adjust to accommodate lower octane fuel.
Because knock is so destructive, owners of older cars must use fuel that will
not knock under the most demanding conditions they encounter, and must
continue to use that fuel, even if they only occasionally require the octane.

If you are already using the proper octane fuel, you will not obtain more
power from higher octane fuels. The engine will be already operating at
optimum settings, and a higher octane should have no effect on the management
system. Your driveability and fuel economy will remain the same. The higher
octane fuel costs more, so you are just throwing money away. If you are
already using a fuel with an octane rating slightly below the optimum, then
using a higher octane fuel will cause the engine management system to move to
the optimum settings, possibly resulting in both increased power and improved
fuel economy. You may be able to change octanes between seasons ( reduce
octane in winter ) to obtain the most cost-effective fuel without loss of
driveability.

Once you have identified the fuel that keeps the engine at optimum settings,
there is no advantage in moving to an even higher octane fuel. The
manufacturer's recommendation is conservative, so you may be able to
carefully reduce the fuel octane. The penalty for getting it badly wrong,
and not realizing that you have, could be expensive engine damage.

Ken Chambers
'64 Amphi

>
> Subject: Fuel
>
> As I filled up for the last time this year, I wondered what kind of fuel
everyone else used.
> I put in high octane (91) unleaded, then add a jug of instead-o-lead (or
similar product).
> I have occasionally added an octane booster. I am too young to remember what
type of fuel was
> around in the 60's. Am I wasting money on high octane and additives?
 
A

Arnold Hite

Guest
Cap'n John reports that a lead substitute additive should be added to the
gas. This worries me since I've put about 3,000 miles on my Amphi and have
only run high test, lead free gas. I've never used a lead substitute
additive. Should I see damage already? I actually thought about the
additive a few years ago but reasoned as follows:
Amoco sold a lead free gas for years before lead free gas was mandated
for everyone. My father always ran that stuff in his cars without a
problem. In fact he thought he was being prudent by selecting the lead free
Amoco. So I have been buying Amoco premium gas and running it in the
Amphicar. Should I start listening for valve noise?

Arnold Hite
Johns Island, SC


> The lead additive is a must as the valve seats are not hardened (as
> far as I know) and the lead will do it's job in lubricating them and
> preventing them from being fried. You can have your heads done with
> hardnened seats and run unleaded fuel without a problem.
>
> Cap'n John
> Two and a half '64s
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
 
B

Bill Connelly

Guest
In reference to the latest discussion on unleaded gasoline (petrol), lead
and other lead substitute fuel additives, a truly eye glazingly
comprehensive FAQ on gasoline, real heavy on the chemistry, can be found at
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/. To save everyone from reams
of turgid rhapsody on the history of gasoline and lyric waxing on the
benzene ring, I have reproduced the relevant sections 8.8 and 8.9 from this
FAQ concerning unleaded fuel and additives below. Another tech-heavy
"Leadfree Gasoline FAQ" with a section titled "DO SOME CARS NEED LEADED
GASOLINE?" can be found at
http://www.princeton.edu/~vmthomas/pb_elim/pb-elimination.html#DO.

A little closer to the Amphicar port, you can read a more laymanly account
of the topic in the British MG Club's "The Lead-Free Petrol Question Part
II: Valve Seat Recession: The Size of The Problem and What To Do About It."
at http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgcc/sf/000302.htm. You'll want to scroll
straightaway down to its section about halfway down called "The situation
for late vintage and pre-War engines". Meanwhile, not to be outdone, the
British Jag-Lovers have similarly informative offerings in summary form at
http://www.jec.org.uk/fuel.htm and as a very slick (if slow loading)
thumbnailed page of image scans of the original article from their April '98
issue of Jaguar Enthusiast magazine: "Fuel and its effects on your engine"
at http://www.jag-lovers.org/library/jecmag/fuel.html.

For those too weary to wade through all of these reports, the summary is
simple for Amphicar owners: Don't panic! Yes there will may be a little
something called "valve recession" now that the lead's gone, but you
shouldn't commence ripping off your head to have hardened valve seats put in
unless the head's already off for something else anyhow. The good news is
that certain caustic substances that were once actually produced because of
the lead in the gas will no longer chemically attack other even pricier
engine internals. It's a better than even trade off. By all accounts and
scientific reports, adding a squirt of lead substitute whenever you fill up
will help slow this "valve recession" to the point where it'll be the Quayle
Administration before you notice even the slightest lag in raw
cheek-twisting G-forces slamming you back into your seat to which we
Amphicar owners are accustomed when the light goes green.

Now here's that excerpt... ~Bilgemaster~

THE EXCERPT FROM THE GASOLINE-FAQ at
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/:

8.8 Can I used unleaded on older vehicles?

Yes, providing the octane is appropriate. There are some older engines that
cut the valve seats directly into the cylinder head ( eg BMC minis ). The
absence of lead, which lubricated the valve seat, causes the very hard
oxidation products of the exhaust valve to wear down the seat. This valve
seat recession is usually corrected by installing seat inserts, hardening
the seats, or use of specific valve seat recession protection additives
( such as Valvemaster ). Most other problems arise because the fuels have
different volatility, or the reduction of combustion chamber deposits.
These can usually be cured by reference to the vehicle manufacturer, who
will probably have a publication with the changes. Some vehicles will
perform as well on unleaded with a slightly lower octane than recommended
leaded fuel, due to the significant reduction in deposits from modern
unleaded gasolines. If premium unleaded petrol containing relatively
high levels of aromatics is used, some carburetted engines from the 1960s
may experience spark plug fouling, however most vehicle manufacturers
have guides to ensure careful engine tuning will eliminate most of the
problem.


8.9 How serious is valve seat recession on older vehicles?

The amount of exhaust valve seat recession is very dependent on the load on
the engine. There have been several major studies on valve seat recession,
and they conclude that most damage occurs under high-speed, high-power
conditions. Engine load is not a primary factor in valve seat wear for
moderate operating conditions, and low to medium speed engines under
moderate loads do not suffer rapid recession, as has been demonstrated
on fuels such as CNG and LPG. Under severe conditions, damage occurs
rapidly,
however there are significant cylinder-to-cylinder variations on the same
engine. A 1970 engine operated at 70 mph conditions exhibited an average
1.5mm of seat recession in 12,000km. The difference between cylinders has
been attributed to different rates of valve rotation, and experiments have
confirmed that more rotation does increase the recession rate [29].
The mechanism of valve seat wear is a mixture of two major mechanisms. Iron
oxide from the combustion chamber surfaces adheres to the valve face and
becomes embedded. These hard particles then allow the valve act as a
grinding
wheel and cut into the valve seat [115]. The significance of valve seat
recession is that should it occur to the extent that the valve does not
seat,
serious engine damage can result from the localised hot spot.

There are a range of additives, usually based on potassium, sodium or
phosphorus that can be added to the gasoline to combat valve seat recession.
As phosphorus has adverse effects on exhaust catalysts, it is seldom used.
The best long term solution is to induction harden the seats or install
inserts, usually when the head is removed for other work, however additives
are routinely and successfully used during transition periods.
 
J

John Bevins

Guest
Lead ed fuel can be ran in a newer engine (with hardned seats)
without concern, however an older engine without the hardnened seats
can not run unleaded fuel. The lead is a lubricant for the valves. So
all you need is to have the seats replaced with hardnened seats and
you have an unleaded engine.
 
G

Gord Souter

Guest
lets see.
I saw gas at $1.17 per L. that like a Quart... times 4= $4.68 Can,
exhange is now only about .05 cent to buy US money
so thats....$4.46 a gallon....
and you thought we had it great cause we don't have to pay for Hospital
bills... well they have to get the money from somewhere...the difference is
ALL TAXES(plus Ont. pays 14% at the retal stores etc.
BTW... Canada sells gas to the USA... and you pay less for it that
us...hmmm/
Filled jeepster and t bird up yesterday... over $100.00 and both have small
tanks\
I think spring is finally going to arive...at 5Am this morning its 50* so
use of seeing 27*
Today there saying Smog!(that blows up from USA... good excyhange for the
gas eh?)
Gord Souter,Canadian 4 amphs,
ORILLIA ONT.
L3V 6H4

MY new phone # is 1 705 327 2820

I buy, sell and restore Only Amphicars
over 700 different parts for sale.
Interior kits and fibreglass panels my specialty!


---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
 
G

Gord Souter

Guest
lets see.
I saw gas at $1.17 per L. that like a Quart... times 4= $4.68 Can,
exhange is now only about .05 cent to buy US money
so thats....$4.46 a gallon....
and you thought we had it great cause we don't have to pay for Hospital
bills... well they have to get the money from somewhere...the difference is
ALL TAXES(plus Ont. pays 14% at the retal stores etc.
BTW... Canada sells gas to the USA... and you pay less for it that
us...hmmm/
Filled jeepster and t bird up yesterday... over $100.00 and both have small
tanks\
I think spring is finally going to arive...at 5Am this morning its 50* so
use of seeing 27*
Today there saying Smog!(that blows up from USA... good excyhange for the
gas eh?)
Gord Souter,Canadian 4 amphs,
ORILLIA ONT.
L3V 6H4

MY new phone # is 1 705 327 2820

I buy, sell and restore Only Amphicars
over 700 different parts for sale.
Interior kits and fibreglass panels my specialty!


---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
 
T

Tom Jones

Guest
--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "Gord Souter" <houseboats@...>
wrote:
>
> lets see.
> I saw gas at $1.17 per L. that like a Quart... times 4= $4.68 Can,
> exhange is now only about .05 cent to buy US money
> so ---------- Gord, does that mean the Hudson will be full when I
pick it up next week??? Tom
 
T

Tom Jones

Guest
--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "Gord Souter" <houseboats@...>
wrote:
>
> lets see.
> I saw gas at $1.17 per L. that like a Quart... times 4= $4.68 Can,
> exhange is now only about .05 cent to buy US money
> so ---------- Gord, does that mean the Hudson will be full when I
pick it up next week??? Tom
 

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