Floating better ideas

R

rogtwo@aol.com

Guest
Well, Mike, while I haven't given-up on floating ideas on this list (I'm
quite stubborn), the results so far have not been encouraging.

In the month and a half that I have been here, the there seems to be a
knee-jerk reaction that any "new" idea is bad. Be it door seals,
transmission bearings, etc., there seems to be a reaction that different is
NOT good. Based on messages I've seen on the list and in private, it appears
that people with positive things to say about innovations are scared off from
posting their opinions due to the strong negative reactions that occur on
this list.

When I mentioned that I was planing on using Frost King seals, it would have
been good if someone with actual experience with these seals (positive or
negative) had come forward with their experience. It didn't happen -- not
even after Tommy suggested this information was available.

Continuing with the door seal example: Of the swampings that were described
in detail, NOT ONE was due to a seal failing that had previously tested as
good. If I remember correctly, the leaky door seals all gave problems on the
FIRST swim after their installation or modification. This is not a really a
problem with the seals, it is an installation and testing problem.

To repeat what I've said before, when I took my car for it's first swim, I
was in the water for only about two minutes. I then pulled up and the ramp
and parked with the bow high. II opened the engine cover, and looked for
water under the engine with a flashlight. I saw more than I expected, so I
only went back into the water for a short time, staying close to a beach
where I could easily land in less than one minute.

In all the cases describing leaky door seals, this same test approach would
have prevented any significant problems. Thus, I think the lesson to be
taken from others door seal problem is not that one shouldn't experiment with
the seals, but that one should always carefully test any new instillation --
be it the original design or not.

Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate having the Amphicar Lovers list, and
I have learned valuable things from it (e.g., don't install thick trim on the
body seam around the door opening). It just doesn't seem that the list is
very supportive of "new" ideas (whether the ideas are really new or not).

Roger St. John
White '63
Seattle





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
A

a_colo_native

Guest
Roger,

I don't think it is people not open to new ideas (I always am), it's
people concerned that this particular idea is not one that needs
looked at again as there is no improvement needed. The proper seals
provide a safe, effective (and at reasonable cost) seal with
redundancy (If you only have one seal, there is NO room for error).
Mine have damaged areas from people dragging their feet getting in,
but because of the superior design of the original type seals, the
doors remain dry. The engineer in me says "If it isn't broke, don't
fix it" in this case, the $40 seals aren't worth the time or pittance
in cost savings to endanger your life or the life of your Amphi.

Speaking for myself only, I just don't see why you would consider
being frugal in an area that is so important to your (and your
passengers) well being. Under normal circumstances there are 3 places
that will sink an Amphi quickly, axel boots, doors, and steering box
seal (in that order). I prefer to err on the safe side and use what
has been tried and tested for 40 years. On the other hand, if you
want to risk it, then you should go ahead and see what you come up
with. You may find out something we didn't know, but more than likely
you will come to the same conclution that the experienced have
already stated. It's not that your efforts are not appreciated (they
are), we are only concerned for your safety Roger.

John
 
G

Gary Grieshaber

Guest
Hi Roger,
When I wrote "freshly restored", I meant over the previous winter
season, not the night before! Those self-stick door seals had survived
6 weeks or so, and I would estimate 8-10 hours of H2O time before
failing!
Thanks, Gary.

>
>
> Well, Mike, while I haven't given-up on floating ideas on this list
(I'm
> quite stubborn), the results so far have not been encouraging.
>
> In the month and a half that I have been here, the there seems to be
a
> knee-jerk reaction that any "new" idea is bad. Be it door seals,
> transmission bearings, etc., there seems to be a reaction that
different is
> NOT good. Based on messages I've seen on the list and in private, it
appears
> that people with positive things to say about innovations are scared
off from
> posting their opinions due to the strong negative reactions that
occur on
> this list.
>
> When I mentioned that I was planing on using Frost King seals, it
would have
> been good if someone with actual experience with these seals
(positive or
> negative) had come forward with their experience. It didn't happen --
not
> even after Tommy suggested this information was available.
>
> Continuing with the door seal example: Of the swampings that were
described
> in detail, NOT ONE was due to a seal failing that had previously
tested as
> good. If I remember correctly, the leaky door seals all gave
problems on the
> FIRST swim after their installation or modification. This is not a
really a
> problem with the seals, it is an installation and testing problem.
>
> To repeat what I've said before, when I took my car for it's first
swim, I
> was in the water for only about two minutes. I then pulled up and
the ramp
> and parked with the bow high. II opened the engine cover, and looked
for
> water under the engine with a flashlight. I saw more than I
expected, so I
> only went back into the water for a short time, staying close to a
beach
> where I could easily land in less than one minute.
>
> In all the cases describing leaky door seals, this same test approach
would
> have prevented any significant problems. Thus, I think the lesson to
be
> taken from others door seal problem is not that one shouldn't
experiment with
> the seals, but that one should always carefully test any new
instillation --
> be it the original design or not.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate having the Amphicar Lovers
list, and
> I have learned valuable things from it (e.g., don't install thick
trim on the
> body seam around the door opening). It just doesn't seem that the
list is
> very supportive of "new" ideas (whether the ideas are really new or
not).
>
> Roger St. John
> White '63
> Seattle
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> THE AMPHICAR-LOVERS LIST
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Before posting requests for information, please check the List
> Archives:
> http://www.escribe.com/automotive/amphicar/search.html
> For more information about this List and other available services
> visit:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amphicar-lovers/
> To UNsubscribe from this List, just send a blank email to:
> amphicar-lovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Any other issues may be addressed to the List owner (Mike Israel) at:
> amphicar770@yahoo.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
NeoMail - Webmail that doesn't suck... as much.
http://neomail.sourceforge.net
 
E

Ed Price

Guest
Re: Re: Floating better ideas

----- Original Message -----
From: a_colo_native <minnow@amphicar.net>
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:11 PM
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Floating better ideas


Roger,

I don't think it is people not open to new ideas (I always am), it's
people concerned that this particular idea is not one that needs
looked at again as there is no improvement needed. The proper seals
provide a safe, effective (and at reasonable cost) seal with
redundancy (If you only have one seal, there is NO room for error).
Mine have damaged areas from people dragging their feet getting in,
but because of the superior design of the original type seals, the
doors remain dry. The engineer in me says "If it isn't broke, don't
fix it" in this case, the $40 seals aren't worth the time or pittance
in cost savings to endanger your life or the life of your Amphi.

Speaking for myself only, I just don't see why you would consider
being frugal in an area that is so important to your (and your
passengers) well being. Under normal circumstances there are 3 places
that will sink an Amphi quickly, axel boots, doors, and steering box
seal (in that order). I prefer to err on the safe side and use what
has been tried and tested for 40 years. On the other hand, if you
want to risk it, then you should go ahead and see what you come up
with. You may find out something we didn't know, but more than likely
you will come to the same conclution that the experienced have
already stated. It's not that your efforts are not appreciated (they
are), we are only concerned for your safety Roger.

John



But John, the engineer in me says that two solutions for a problem is better.
The more good solutions to any issue, like axle boots, the lower the possibility
that you become trapped to the whims or fortune of one vendor. It's all about
back-ups and alternatives.

Addressing the question about general list apathy or hostility to "new ideas", I
can see two good explanations for that attitude.

First, as in any car club, there are some members who value the purity of the
"original design." Their cars have to be absolutely stock. These are the types
who seek out original decals for the jack, worry about the color of the air
cleaner, and (dare I say it, keep their generators). I really feel for these
guys, because the Amphi was a work in continuous progress. One model, with more
variations than the number of years of production.

At the other extreme, we have the guys who wonder what would happen if they
dropped a small-block Chevy 350 in their Amphi. Maybe they could go so fast that
water would get sucked out of any leaks! Maybe if they put in a turbo blower,
and ran a Jacuzzi pump on a power take-off, they could get their Amphi to plane!
Don't laugh too hard; somebody has already done this, well, at least the SBC
installation. It's a "what if" kind of mindset, and they like to experiment with
everything.

To the extent that I have one, my guide kinda follows WWHD (What Would Hans
Do?). The Amphicar is all about innovation and expediency. An engine from here,
brakes from there, wheels from somewhere else, and, propellers! If a 1960
refrigerator door seal would have worked, I'm sure Hans would have used it. If
alternators had been available then, he would have used them too. I don't think
he would approve of a SBC (because it compromises so many other trade-offs, like
weight, center of mass, capabilities of the transmissions and suspension), but
think of the possibilities with a small 4-cylinder diesel.

Obviously, the big danger in this kind of innovation is that we are not
professional automotive engineers, well versed in the concepts of temperature
extremes, corrosion, vibration and strength of materials. So, if you feel like
doing some innovation with a proven design (especially if it's safety critical),
then you better be very conservative.

Aside from that caution, I really enjoy hearing about any innovations and
substitutions. Keep on posting!

Ed
El Cajon
67 Rust Guppy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
B

Bill Connelly

Guest
Well, Mike, while I haven't given-up on floating ideas on this list (I'm
quite stubborn), the results so far have not been encouraging.

In the month and a half that I have been here, the there seems to be a
knee-jerk reaction that any "new" idea is bad. Be it door seals,
transmission bearings, etc., there seems to be a reaction that different is
NOT good [snip!...]

============

Well, I for one regret if my tale of moonless near-submersion might serve to
stifle any sensible innovation attempts. My actual intent was primarily to
provide vicarious entertainment to the other readers, not pull the wind out
of anybody's sails. The truth is that there was a LOT more that was wrong
with that hapless Amphi than just bad doorseals: it really had no business
being in the drink at all that night. Someday I might post the whole tale
and details. In the meantime, whatever tips anyone may have for parts
substitutions or improvements to the breed can always be logged for
posterity at http://www.amphicar.net/partstips.html . Don't be shy.

~Bilgey~
 
R

rogtwo@aol.com

Guest
> When I wrote "freshly restored", I meant over the previous winter
> season, not the night before! Those self-stick door seals had survived
> 6 weeks or so, and I would estimate 8-10 hours of H2O time before
> failing!
> Thanks, Gary.

Thanks for the clarification Gary. That's very useful information. I don't
suppose you remember exactly what type of seal you were using?

From your comment about your daughter, in your previous post, it sounds like
maybe your misadventure happened a number of years ago? I'm hoping that self
stick adhesives are better now (note that Gordon's is now using self-stick
seals). Of course I don't know that my seals are using a better adhesive :(
I think I'll try soaking my seal material in water for a while. :)

Thanks

Roger St. John



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
G

Gary Grieshaber

Guest
Hi Roger,
That incident happened almost 23 years ago! The seals were made by, or
at least had a brand name of Aveco. I replaced the self stick type with
a "stick-it-yourself" style, also by Aveco, and never had another
problem. In fact, I still use that same style seal on the cars I do now!
Thanks, Gary.
> > When I wrote "freshly restored", I meant over the previous winter
> > season, not the night before! Those self-stick door seals had
survived
> > 6 weeks or so, and I would estimate 8-10 hours of H2O time before
> > failing!
> > Thanks, Gary.
>
> Thanks for the clarification Gary. That's very useful information.
I don't
> suppose you remember exactly what type of seal you were using?
>
> >From your comment about your daughter, in your previous post, it
sounds like
> maybe your misadventure happened a number of years ago? I'm hoping
that self
> stick adhesives are better now (note that Gordon's is now using self-
stick
> seals). Of course I don't know that my seals are using a better
adhesive :(
> I think I'll try soaking my seal material in water for a while. :)
>
> Thanks
>
> Roger St. John
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> THE AMPHICAR-LOVERS LIST
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Before posting requests for information, please check the List
> Archives:
> http://www.escribe.com/automotive/amphicar/search.html
> For more information about this List and other available services
> visit:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amphicar-lovers/
> To UNsubscribe from this List, just send a blank email to:
> amphicar-lovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Any other issues may be addressed to the List owner (Mike Israel) at:
> amphicar770@yahoo.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
NeoMail - Webmail that doesn't suck... as much.
http://neomail.sourceforge.net
 
B

Bill Connelly

Guest
Just as a clarification to the posting below to put folks at ease, I've
never yet heard of ANYONE ever having a problem with my self-adhesive
door-at-body seals (not Aveco brand), the one's I've been selling since '95,
when I had to get a lot more than I personally needed specially cut by a
factory for my own Amphi because Hugh was then temporarily out of the
"standard style" glue-it-on seals (see my ad on the Club Classifieds at
http://www.amphicar.com/ads.htm#seals ).

So, if you're like me and nursing along an otherwise sound but older and
possibly "tired" door-at-door seal (i.e. the one on the door) or just want
to quickly replace and firm up a ragged or split original style (or
original!) doorframe seal, then you really can't do better. Fear not! Mine
have been on my own Amphi for 7 years now...You know, the sorta scruffily
original fjord green one called OLD BUOY that sails and sails and sails
without so much as a dribble from the bilge pump? Yeah, that one. My seals
happen to be just about a sixteenth of an inch thicker than the standard
stuff, which helps them to seat just that wee bit firmer against a used
door-at-door seal.

I should also point out that two of the most renowned "leak stoppers for
hire" out there, Dave the Wave Derer of Midwest Amphicar (
www.midwestamphicar.com ) and Billy Syx of East Coast Amphicar (
www.galloweb.com/~amphicar ) both use my seals by the roll in their own
repair and restoration works.

AND apart from being able to put my seals on in just a couple of minutes and
not see bugs in the bilge that aren't really there from glue vapors, they're
also a bargain. Once I cleared my original production several years ago, I
just halved the price. Now, I just think of that Mr. Jackson as a
get-Bilgey's-lazy-ass-out-the-door-to-the-Post-Office-before
noon-on-Saturday fee.

~Bilgey~


----- Original Message -----

Hi Roger,
That incident happened almost 23 years ago! The seals were made by, or
at least had a brand name of Aveco. I replaced the self stick type with
a "stick-it-yourself" style, also by Aveco, and never had another
problem. In fact, I still use that same style seal on the cars I do now!
Thanks, Gary.
> > When I wrote "freshly restored", I meant over the previous winter
> > season, not the night before! Those self-stick door seals had
survived
> > 6 weeks or so, and I would estimate 8-10 hours of H2O time before
> > failing!
> > Thanks, Gary.
>
> Thanks for the clarification Gary. That's very useful information.
I don't
> suppose you remember exactly what type of seal you were using?
>
> >From your comment about your daughter, in your previous post, it
sounds like
> maybe your misadventure happened a number of years ago? I'm hoping
that self
> stick adhesives are better now (note that Gordon's is now using self-
stick
> seals). Of course I don't know that my seals are using a better
adhesive :(
> I think I'll try soaking my seal material in water for a while. :)
>
> Thanks
>
> Roger St. John
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> THE AMPHICAR-LOVERS LIST
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Before posting requests for information, please check the List
> Archives:
> http://www.escribe.com/automotive/amphicar/search.html
> For more information about this List and other available services
> visit:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amphicar-lovers/
> To UNsubscribe from this List, just send a blank email to:
> amphicar-lovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Any other issues may be addressed to the List owner (Mike Israel) at:
> amphicar770@yahoo.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
NeoMail - Webmail that doesn't suck... as much.
http://neomail.sourceforge.net

THE AMPHICAR-LOVERS LIST
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Before posting requests for information, please check the List
Archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/amphicar/search.html
For more information about this List and other available services
visit:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amphicar-lovers/
To UNsubscribe from this List, just send a blank email to:
amphicar-lovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Any other issues may be addressed to the List owner (Mike Israel) at:
amphicar770@yahoo.com


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