Engine cooling / Fan noise

W

wcapron2001

Guest
Members, I have not had time to experiment with this idea, however I
have given it a lot of thought.
The Amphicar engine fan blade pitch and water pump pully diameter
were (most likely) carefully chosen for the expected heat
output/typical engine RPM. If the larger pully is installed the water
pump turns too slowly at idle and won't move enough water at idle to
keep cool. If the flex fan is installed the blades flatten out too much
at freeway speeds to move enough air. There is some "perfect speed"
(RPM) where the fan moves the maximum amount (CFM) of air and the water
pump moves enough water to remove the heat to the radiator.
I think the best way to do this is with a electric motor driving the
origional water pump pully and fan thru a belt. You would need to get
enough power and rpm to run the fan at "best" speed for efficency and
would probably want a "low" speed for ideling around the lake. My guess
is that "best" speed is about 2500 rpm and low speed around 1000. Best
speed can be calculated by measuring engine rpm at the speed that the
fan starts to cavitate(roar!) and calculating fan rpm due to pully
ratio's. I think you would want to be a couple of hundred rpm less than
that number.
Bill Capron
 
D

David Chapman

Guest
<table bgColor="#ffffff">
<font face="Arial" size="2">I wrote abit about the fan in a recent club newsletter. I think there is potential to reduce noise / increase power. An electric solution probably is the way to go (assume you have done alternator mod) but remember that you have to overcome the fact you are decreasing overall efficiency by converting motion to electricityto motion. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Amphicar engineers spoke to Triumph people a lot aboutoverheating and did lots of testing to be ready for theFlorida launch event in 61/62. I think as a consequence the standard fan (which is much bigger than the Triumph item) overcools the engine. Also the Triumph engines each have a "temperature personality" and some will run hot - or cool - no matter what you do.</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">There are electricwater pumps available (Google triumph spitfire electric water pump ) and with an electric fan that could work well but the key is running the car as standard first and measuring from lots of temperature sensors and then seeing if you can achieve same level of cooling from a quieter fan. Also remember that engine coolant temp is just a small part -the fan has to throw airall the way to the underseat area to cool the transmission oil. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">If you use Amsoil you could possibly risk running the transmission a little hotter - of course in theory you could fit an oil cooler to the transmission but that is not easy and what do you do with the radiator for that cooler. It's about this stage I normally decide it's all too difficult and keep it standard - or do what John Fhas done on his1300, bigger pulley and different fan. </font>

<font face="Arial" size="2">DavidC</font>
 
G

gtpeterp

Guest
Has anyone attempted to fit a larger/more efficient radiator? I should
think an aluminum radiator with an electric fan would be more than
enough to keep it cool.

Peter

--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "wcapron2001" <wcarron@q...>
wrote:
>
> Members, I have not had time to experiment with this idea, however I
> have given it a lot of thought.
> The Amphicar engine fan blade pitch and water pump pully diameter
> were (most likely) carefully chosen for the expected heat
> output/typical engine RPM. If the larger pully is installed the water
> pump turns too slowly at idle and won't move enough water at idle to
> keep cool. If the flex fan is installed the blades flatten out too much
> at freeway speeds to move enough air. There is some "perfect speed"
> (RPM) where the fan moves the maximum amount (CFM) of air and the water
> pump moves enough water to remove the heat to the radiator.
> I think the best way to do this is with a electric motor driving the
> origional water pump pully and fan thru a belt. You would need to get
> enough power and rpm to run the fan at "best" speed for efficency and
> would probably want a "low" speed for ideling around the lake. My guess
> is that "best" speed is about 2500 rpm and low speed around 1000. Best
> speed can be calculated by measuring engine rpm at the speed that the
> fan starts to cavitate(roar!) and calculating fan rpm due to pully
> ratio's. I think you would want to be a couple of hundred rpm less than
> that number.
> Bill Capron
>
 
J

John Friese

Guest
Hello Dave,

Actually, I tried a number of different fans including the Triumph
fan clutch system and various flex fans but none of them cooled like
the stock Amphicar fan. The problem with the Amphi fan is that it
gets incredibly noisy at high speed. The best solution that I've
found is the larger water pump pulley (from a later (about 1972)
Triumph Spitfire)and the original Amphicar fan. The larger pulley
slows the fan down enough to greatly quiet it at high speed and it
doesn't seem to affect the cooling at idle.

I haven't heard about the engine "temperature personality" that you
mention but it does explain some differences that I've run into with
different engines.

All the radiator guys that I've talked to say they could build me up
a radiator that would surpass the regular Amphicar radiator for
cooling but I haven't found that expense to be necessary.

Electric fans that I've come across all seem to be noisy anyway and
they're noisey all the time. Yuk.

Larry and Nancy Solheim are in the area and we got together for a
swim today. The weather was pretty but the temperature was only
about 70 degrees at the lake. Ha ha. I'm sure glad I don't live in
Chicago anymore.

John Friese
Santa Barbara, CA

67 White
67 Red




--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "David Chapman" <david@m...>
wrote:
>
> I wrote a bit about the fan in a recent club newsletter. I think
there is potential to reduce noise / increase power. An electric
solution probably is the way to go (assume you have done alternator
mod) but remember that you have to overcome the fact you are
decreasing overall efficiency by converting motion to electricity to
motion.
>
> Amphicar engineers spoke to Triumph people a lot about overheating
and did lots of testing to be ready for the Florida launch event in
61/62. I think as a consequence the standard fan (which is much
bigger than the Triumph item) overcools the engine. Also the Triumph
engines each have a "temperature personality" and some will run hot -
or cool - no matter what you do.
>
> There are electric water pumps available (Google triumph spitfire
electric water pump ) and with an electric fan that could work well
but the key is running the car as standard first and measuring from
lots of temperature sensors and then seeing if you can achieve same
level of cooling from a quieter fan. Also remember that engine
coolant temp is just a small part - the fan has to throw air all the
way to the underseat area to cool the transmission oil.
>
> If you use Amsoil you could possibly risk running the transmission
a little hotter - of course in theory you could fit an oil cooler to
the transmission but that is not easy and what do you do with the
radiator for that cooler. It's about this stage I normally decide
it's all too difficult and keep it standard - or do what John F has
done on his 1300, bigger pulley and different fan.
>
> David C
>
 
W

Warren

Guest
I thought about using an electric fan, too but the added noise wouldn't be
good. Also my kids were always complaining about the rear seat getting so
hot. So, if you blow the air into the engine compartment I figured it would
get even hotter. I put a bank of three 4-inch computer fans over the
muffler area and the hot air that was blowing into the engine compartment
now blows out the vents. I'm planning on making another bracket for the
other side of the engine later this winter. My temperature gauge went from
the hot side of the "L" in Normal to the cool side of the "A" when I'm in
the water. I usually let some water stay in the bilge to cool down the oil
pan as well. It gets pretty hot here in Texas and this lets us use the car
in the summer time, too. I'll take some pictures if anyone is interested.
There were no alterations to the car. The brackets are pushed under the
existing cross-members in the engine cover and I used a little silicone
adhesive to hold them in place.

-- Warren
Austin, TX


> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 03:20:21 -0000
> From: "John Friese" <jfriese@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Engine cooling / Fan noise
>
> Hello Dave,
>
> Actually, I tried a number of different fans including the Triumph
> fan clutch system and various flex fans but none of them cooled like
> the stock Amphicar fan. The problem with the Amphi fan is that it
> gets incredibly noisy at high speed.
 
R

rlgreen_55

Guest
My design that I mentioned a few days ago works on your method that
exhausts the hot air. It will also operate with a dimmable switch
that will take a lot of the fan noise out.

I first looked at computer 12 volt fans but ended up with a in line
bilge blower that is rated for marine use. The computer fans seemed
like they would be hard to mount and keep the water from ruining
them, plus they are non spark / ignition proof which can be bad in a
engine compartment.

--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "Warren" <kodo@t...> wrote:
>
> I thought about using an electric fan, too but the added noise
wouldn't be
> good. Also my kids were always complaining about the rear seat
getting so
> hot. So, if you blow the air into the engine compartment I figured
it would
> get even hotter. I put a bank of three 4-inch computer fans over
the
> muffler area and the hot air that was blowing into the engine
compartment
> now blows out the vents. I'm planning on making another bracket
for the
> other side of the engine later this winter. My temperature gauge
went from
> the hot side of the "L" in Normal to the cool side of the "A" when
I'm in
> the water. I usually let some water stay in the bilge to cool down
the oil
> pan as well. It gets pretty hot here in Texas and this lets us use
the car
> in the summer time, too. I'll take some pictures if anyone is
interested.
> There were no alterations to the car. The brackets are pushed
under the
> existing cross-members in the engine cover and I used a little
silicone
> adhesive to hold them in place.
>
> -- Warren
> Austin, TX
>
>
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 03:20:21 -0000
> > From: "John Friese" <jfriese@m...>
> > Subject: Re: Engine cooling / Fan noise
> >
> > Hello Dave,
> >
> > Actually, I tried a number of different fans including the Triumph
> > fan clutch system and various flex fans but none of them cooled
like
> > the stock Amphicar fan. The problem with the Amphi fan is that it
> > gets incredibly noisy at high speed.
>
 
B

Bill Connelly

Guest
Re: Re: Engine cooling / Fan noise

A day late and a dollar--well OK, two cents--short, I thought I oughta
mention one modification I noticed at one of the Celina gatherings that
seemed to make a whole lot of sense for helping keep the temperature in the
engine compartment down: wrapping the whole exhaust system (header, muffler
and exhaust pipe) in some of that special exhaust insulation tape. That
way, most of the engine's heat would really head through the pipe and out
the back (I mean, aft) instead of much of it radiating into the compartment.
I can't remember whose Amphi it was where I saw this, but it's one of those
things I plan to try out "one of these days" to help coax my temp needle
back from the edge of the red when I'm bumping along down the Pennsylvania
Turnpike in the 90 degree heat hour after hour on the road to Celina.

A Google search for "exhaust insulation tape" reveals a number of sources
and other tips for the stuff, which apparently costs about $20 for a 25 foot
roll, which (let's see: divided by pi, and then again by 2 to account for an
even overlap, should be...yes, more than enough for an Amphi's exhaust
system).

OOOOOOOH, I'm HOT!
~Bilgey~

P.S. It seems that 2005 was the first year since the Amphicar.net website's
creation about six or seven years ago that sales commissions from the
"AMSOIL for Amphicars Catalog" didn't quite make the nut for the site's
webhosting rent. That's OK, I'll kick in the shekels to keep it on line,
but PLEASE folks: If you're gonna use AMSOIL (and why on earth wouldn't
you?), DO use customer number 508472 when you order...It won't cost you even
a nickel more to do this, and you'll help keep the lights on at
Amphicar.net. You can check out the Catalog at:
http://www.amphicar.net/amsoil/ .


----- Original Message -----
From: Warren
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:50 AM
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] Re: Engine cooling / Fan noise


I thought about using an electric fan, too but the added noise wouldn't be
good. Also my kids were always complaining about the rear seat getting so
hot. So, if you blow the air into the engine compartment I figured it would
get even hotter. I put a bank of three 4-inch computer fans over the
muffler area and the hot air that was blowing into the engine compartment
now blows out the vents. I'm planning on making another bracket for the
other side of the engine later this winter. My temperature gauge went from
the hot side of the "L" in Normal to the cool side of the "A" when I'm in
the water. I usually let some water stay in the bilge to cool down the oil
pan as well. It gets pretty hot here in Texas and this lets us use the car
in the summer time, too. I'll take some pictures if anyone is interested.
There were no alterations to the car. The brackets are pushed under the
existing cross-members in the engine cover and I used a little silicone
adhesive to hold them in place.

-- Warren
Austin, TX


> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 03:20:21 -0000
> From: "John Friese" <jfriese@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Engine cooling / Fan noise
>
> Hello Dave,
>
> Actually, I tried a number of different fans including the Triumph
> fan clutch system and various flex fans but none of them cooled like
> the stock Amphicar fan. The problem with the Amphi fan is that it
> gets incredibly noisy at high speed.



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