crankshaft pulley

gtpeterp · Feb 11, 2006

I am in the process of rebuilding my motor. Thinking I had the proper
measurement for the crankshaft pulley nut, I went and bought one.
Turns out its the wrong size. Does anyone know off the top of there
head what the proper size is so that I can avoid further trips to the
hardware store?

Peter

nelson625@aol.com · Feb 11, 2006

<table style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Re crankshaft pulley nut: I do not know the size, but I would certainly doubt you would get it in an American hardware store. You probably need to contact Hugh Gordon or Gord Souter or else someone who deals in Triumph parts asit isalmost certainly Metricor itmight even be Whitworth. Vic Nelson

David Chapman · Feb 12, 2006

<table style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor="#ffffff">
> Re crankshaft pulley nut:

It is a standard AF size, I think it is 1 and 7/16 on Amphicar and 1 and 13/16 on1300 and 1500 engines. I use a metric open ended spanner on it - I think it is around 38mm but can't find it at the moment to check.

One thing you must do is check the torque when replacing, they have to be VERY tight and use Loctite as well - it is rare but they can come off.

All bolts on Amphicar are metric except the ones on the engine. These are mostly AF with UNC or UNF thread but there are a couple that are Whitworth. For ref these old non-metric sizes are only called English in the US - the description used in the rest of the world and the word use to describe them in the manuals is Imperial.

David C

nelson625@aol.com · Feb 12, 2006

<table style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
David -

Thank you for the enlightening information regarding the Pulley nut and related information in your recent e-mail. For my own edification (and possibly others who are similarly curious), what do AF, UNC and UNF stand for. I have a suspicion that these are identifying acronymns used in the UK and possibly in English speaking Europe.

My off hand guess is that AF might be American Fine, and the C and F after "UN"referring toCoarse and Fine thread. If the"A" stands for American, that would be surprising to me for something manufactured in Europe or the UK back in the 60's. However, if this is correct, what then does UN refer to. Though I have minimal knowledge of the derivation of the terms used in the U.S., I have always thought that in this country, we basically had 2 types - "Standard" which is also referred to as Coarse threads and "Fine" which is also called Machine threads here or (I believe) "SAE" (referring to Society of Automotive Engineers - I believe.)

In this country, there was for a while quite a push to convert over to the metric system of bolt and thread sizes from the inch units. It seems to me, that this attempt is no longer being urged very strongly, though I don't know. I only know that in the U.S., nowadays, one really must have tools in both inch and metric sizes. This is partly because we now have so many vehicles imported whichuse almost all metric sizes ( I believe ) and that at least some of the American manufacturers switched for a while or partially switched. One of your countrymen from the London area visited me briefly last monthbecause of our common interest in what here are now commonly called "Woodies." ( Wooden bodied convertibles and station wagons from the 30's to the 50's) He owns a very attractive 1950 Austin 70 Station wagon. Though I have been to the UK several times, the most recent was probably 10-15 years ago and I only learned from him that shillings are no longer a part of your monetary system. I guess hay-pennies and pence are probably also all out of use as are, of course, Guineas.

It is an interesting world wherethe United Statesmeasures in inches and feet and yards and miles and ounces and 16 ounce pounds, but uses a metric system of money with the Dollar as its main unit whereasthe UKuses the metric system for volumetric and linear measurement, but still uses the Pound as a monetary system or has the UK simply retained the Pound as a unit of money but is also on a metric monetary system ? I believe you use Miles and mph instead of Kilometers in the UK, do you not ? whereas the rest of Europe, I think, uses Kilometers (probably spelled Kilometres)andkph ?

Just curious. Victor Nelson near Daytona Beach

WB6WSN · Feb 13, 2006

<table style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<blockquote style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left">From: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nelson625@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 9:43 PM
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [amphicar-lovers] crankshaft pulley


David -

Thank you for the enlightening information regarding the Pulley nut and related information in your recent e-mail. For my own edification (and possibly others who are similarly curious), what do AF, UNC and UNF stand for. I have a suspicion that these are identifying acronymns used in the UK and possibly in English speaking Europe.

My off hand guess is that AF might be American Fine, and the C and F after "UN"referring toCoarse and Fine thread. If the"A" stands for American, that would be surprising to me for something manufactured in Europe or the UK back in the 60's. However, if this is correct, what then does UN refer to. Though I have minimal knowledge of the derivation of the terms used in the U.S., I have always thought that in this country, we basically had 2 types - "Standard" which is also referred to as Coarse threads and "Fine" which is also called Machine threads here or (I believe) "SAE" (referring to Society of Automotive Engineers - I believe.)

In this country, there was for a while quite a push to convert over to the metric system of bolt and thread sizes from the inch units. It seems to me, that this attempt is no longer being urged very strongly, though I don't know. I only know that in the U.S., nowadays, one really must have tools in both inch and metric sizes. This is partly because we now have so many vehicles imported whichuse almost all metric sizes ( I believe ) and that at least some of the American manufacturers switched for a while or partially switched. One of your countrymen from the London area visited me briefly last monthbecause of our common interest in what here are now commonly called "Woodies." ( Wooden bodied convertibles and station wagons from the 30's to the 50's) He owns a very attractive 1950 Austin 70 Station wagon. Though I have been to the UK several times, the most recent was probably 10-15 years ago and I only learned from him that shillings are no longer a part of your monetary system. I guess hay-pennies and pence are probably also all out of use as are, of course, Guineas.

It is an interesting world wherethe United Statesmeasures in inches and feet and yards and miles and ounces and 16 ounce pounds, but uses a metric system of money with the Dollar as its main unit whereasthe UKuses the metric system for volumetric and linear measurement, but still uses the Pound as a monetary system or has the UK simply retained the Pound as a unit of money but is also on a metric monetary system ? I believe you use Miles and mph instead of Kilometers in the UK, do you not ? whereas the rest of Europe, I think, uses Kilometers (probably spelled Kilometres)andkph ?

Just curious. Victor Nelson near Daytona Beach

</blockquote>
Creating any standard is an exercisedrenched in plodding bureaucracy, political intrigue and personal vanity. It's really amazing that we have any standards. Sometimes standards are created by an industry leader or pioneer, and market momentum forces others to get onboard. Sometimes, hammering out the standard takes so long that the technology gets passed by.

I don't know what AF is, but the SAE has two major fastener systems, Unified National Coarse & Unified National Fine. Most of the fasteners we use in the USA are from the Coarse series, for instance, the 1/4-20 specifies a thread with a 1/4" pitch diameter and 20 threads per inch. But there is a rarely-seen Fine counterpart, the 1/4-28; same pitch diameter, but 28 threads per inch.

Fastener geometry goes way beyond the basic pitch count and diameter; for instance, there are several Classes of "fit" for each thread. You might want a very tight, or interference, fit, where you actually deform metal as you engage the threads. Or, you might want a loose fit, so that you can easily engage the threads in a blind spot by hand.

Beyond that, the profile of the thread influences how well it "grips" the mating thread,and how it handles shock loading or vibration. And so far, I have only been talking about threaded fasteners. When specifying threads for actuators, you might want a very different thread profile from what works best as a fastener. And NPT pipe threads have a tapered pitch diameter, starting out as a very easy fit and stopping you with an absolute interference.

One odd thing about standardization, you want it only when you want your product easily serviced. If you don't want your customer inside your product, you close your product with rivets or odd "security" hardware (5-sided spline bolts or Allen heads with a center pin). This sometimes explains why you will be trying to fix something, and as you get into it, you will encounter a gadget that fits absolutely nothing you ever saw. This cuts both ways. For instance, GM uses a locking ring in it's steering column assemblies that requires a factory tool to get it out. It's just their way of telling you to takethe repairto the GM dealer. OTOH, I have also had the experience of removing a very ordinary cover, and having all the little insides pour out on the floor.



<div align="left">Ed Price
<div align="left">El Cajon, CA USA
<div align="left">67 Rust Guppy
<div align="left">

gtpeterp · Feb 13, 2006

1 7/16 it is. Thanks for the info, that seems to work perfectly. Now
on to rebuilding the engine. Wish me luck!

Peter

--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "David Chapman" <david@...> wrote:
>
> > Re crankshaft pulley nut:
>
> It is a standard AF size, I think it is 1 and 7/16 on Amphicar and 1
and 13/16 on 1300 and 1500 engines. I use a metric open ended spanner
on it - I think it is around 38mm but can't find it at the moment to
check.
>
> One thing you must do is check the torque when replacing, they have
to be VERY tight and use Loctite as well - it is rare but they can
come off.
>
> All bolts on Amphicar are metric except the ones on the engine.
These are mostly AF with UNC or UNF thread but there are a couple that
are Whitworth. For ref these old non-metric sizes are only called
English in the US - the description used in the rest of the world and
the word use to describe them in the manuals is Imperial.
>
> David C
>

David Chapman · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Re: crankshaft pulley

<table bgColor="#ffffff" background="">> Now on to rebuilding the engine. Wish me luck!

Most important thing to check/measure/replace are the crankshaft thrust bearings that control endfloat. Normally that is all that needs doing on the bottom half of the engine. On the top check for play in the valve guides and also exhaust valve seat pitting.

Generally though with Amphicar the engine problems are corrosion/neglect and not wear. Many Triumphs with this engine travelled over 100000 miles with no problems.

David C

nelson625@aol.com · Feb 13, 2006

<table style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Thanks Ed for in interesting trip into the world of threads, pitches, and etc. The taperingof Pipe threads is an interesting example of the interference situation to which you refer. Model T Ford Spark plugs, as you doubtless are well aware, are significantly tapered, unlike the following Model A Fords. I am told that the Japanese sometimes have some unique sizes, pitches and whatever that don't match anything in our normal range of sizes etc. (if there is such a thing as normal !) Vic Nelson

gtpeterp · Feb 13, 2006

There has already been a really good response to this, but it might
also help to read this wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_thread

There a a fair number of links down the page explaining most of the
standards in some detail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Thread_Standard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth

Also, just for kicks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphicar

Someone with enough time could probably expand that entry quite a bit...

Peter

--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, nelson625@... wrote:
>
> David -
>
> Thank you for the enlightening information regarding the Pulley nut and
> related information in your recent e-mail. For my own edification
(and possibly
> others who are similarly curious), what do AF, UNC and UNF stand
for. I have
> a suspicion that these are identifying acronymns used in the UK and
possibly
> in English speaking Europe.
>
> My off hand guess is that AF might be American Fine, and the C and F
after
> "UN" referring to Coarse and Fine thread. If the "A" stands for
American, that
> would be surprising to me for something manufactured in Europe or
the UK back
> in the 60's. However, if this is correct, what then does UN refer
to. Though
> I have minimal knowledge of the derivation of the terms used in the
U.S., I
> have always thought that in this country, we basically had 2 types -
"Standard"
> which is also referred to as Coarse threads and "Fine" which is also
called
> Machine threads here or (I believe) "SAE" (referring to Society of
Automotive
> Engineers - I believe.)
>
> In this country, there was for a while quite a push to convert over
to the
> metric system of bolt and thread sizes from the inch units. It seems
to me, that
> this attempt is no longer being urged very strongly, though I don't
know. I
> only know that in the U.S., nowadays, one really must have tools in
both inch
> and metric sizes. This is partly because we now have so many
vehicles imported
> which use almost all metric sizes ( I believe ) and that at least
some of the
> American manufacturers switched for a while or partially switched.
One of
> your countrymen from the London area visited me briefly last month
because of our
> common interest in what here are now commonly called "Woodies." (
Wooden
> bodied convertibles and station wagons from the 30's to the 50's)
He owns a very
> attractive 1950 Austin 70 Station wagon. Though I have been to the
UK several
> times, the most recent was probably 10-15 years ago and I only
learned from
> him that shillings are no longer a part of your monetary system. I
guess
> hay-pennies and pence are probably also all out of use as are, of
course, Guineas.
>
> It is an interesting world where the United States measures in
inches and
> feet and yards and miles and ounces and 16 ounce pounds, but uses a
metric system
> of money with the Dollar as its main unit whereas the UK uses the
metric
> system for volumetric and linear measurement, but still uses the
Pound as a
> monetary system or has the UK simply retained the Pound as a unit of
money but is
> also on a metric monetary system ? I believe you use Miles and mph
instead of
> Kilometers in the UK, do you not ? whereas the rest of Europe, I
think, uses
> Kilometers (probably spelled Kilometres) and kph ?
>
> Just curious. Victor Nelson near Daytona Beach
>

nelson625@aol.com · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Re: crankshaft pulley

<table style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Thank you for the information and websites Peter. Victor Nelson

crankshaft pulley

gtpeterp

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David Chapman

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WB6WSN

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