Classic car oil on our Amphicars

mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
The reduction of ZDDP in motor oil is a big deal for older engines like used in the Amphi. Search the forums or Google and you will find tons of info.

Many drivers of older vehicles are now using Valvoline VR1 which has sufficient levels of ZDDP.

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/

  1. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil: Contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40, and straight 60.

My only concern with the eBay oil is that you have no idea what it is. I trust a company like Valvoline, Motul, Redline, or even Amsoil, much more than I do a generic brand.
 

topless51ford

New Member
Motor oils may not be the only worry.
Do the Amphicar transmissions have brass synchros? New gear oils will eat them? Something about GL5 will eat the brass and the old type GL4 wont. But GL4 still avalible at Napa.
Does anybody know if they have brass synchros?
 

mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
topless51ford said:
Motor oils may not be the only worry.
Do the Amphicar transmissions have brass synchros? New gear oils will eat them? Something about GL5 will eat the brass and the old type GL4 wont. But GL4 still avalible at Napa.
Does anybody know if they have brass synchros?
That is correct. They do have brass synchros so use GL4. Redline, probably others, makes a suitable gear box oil.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=46&pcid=7
 

SNOWBIRD

Amphicar Expert
I've never seen Brass synhcros in any of the Amphicar Transmisions that I have rebuilt ,they are steel with an abrasive coating on them.. when the coating wears off(or falls off) that is when your trany starts gringing when you try to shift.
Basic marine 90w gear oils will work in trany or if your rebuilding and putting ALL new seals in you can then change to a GL5 type syntetic oil.
Motor oils.. Amphicar usually do not get alot of driving, no mater what oil you use you shoulod change out before storage.
I use Shell, desiel 15w40 Rotella oil.
 

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mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
It is almost mandatory that the ZDDP discussion comes back around from time to time.

Lately I have been spending more time with the Porsche than the Amphi (forgive me) and this is a topic near and dear to the flat tappet, air cooled community's heart. Seems that the most recommended oil is Brad Penn 20w50. I just picked up a case and will be trying it the Amphi as well. You can buy it on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TPB3ZY/?tag=theampfor-20

the specs are also provided below.

The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1® oils “typical” 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid “flat tappet” type system. As important as the chemistry is to the Penn-Grade 1® oils, it is by no means the whole story. The unique base oil cut used to refine the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils maintain a tremendous affinity to metal surfaces. This naturally occurring “metal wetting” characteristic enables the oil to stay put on your highly stressed engines and makes the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oil resist slinging for an extended period of time. Also, rest assured in knowing that the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils are 100% Made in the USA.


ZDDP LAB RESULTS

We have seen the question arise on a number of chat rooms and websites about the amount of Zinc and Phosphorus in our Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oils. The questions seem to have arose after a number of people individually sent samples of our products to Blackstone Lab(s) for analysis. The Blackstone report showed a lower Zinc and Phosphorus additive concentration level then our established in house specifications and laboratory results from our ISO 9001:2008 quality control lab proved.

In an effort to clarify any misconception about our product we did our own testing and sent three virgin oil samples (each from the same identical batch) to both Blackstone Lab and Southwest Research Lab for testing. All three Southwest sample results were completely in line with our internal specifications/analysis. The Blackstone zinc and phosphorus results in all three analysis were lower than our internal specifications/analysis and Southwest Research’s lab results. The results for both the Blackstone and Southwest Research analysis are listed below:

Brad Penn Product Blackstone Southwest Research

Penn Grade 1 zinc 1,214 ppm zinc 1,540 ppm
20W-50 #7119 phos 944 ppm phos 1,319 ppm

Penn Grade 1 zinc 1,424 ppm zinc 1,565 ppm
10W-30 #7150 phos 1,139 ppm phos 1,332 ppm

Brad Penn PCMO zinc 689 ppm zinc 1,051 ppm
20W-50 SJ #7123* phos 522 ppm phos 901 ppm

*In some cases we feel our PCMO SAE 20W-50 was sent in for analysis (and not the High Performance Oil SAE 20W-50) which does contain lower Zinc and Phosphorous additive concentration levels.

The difference in results between Blackstone and SRI can be explained by a difference in methodology in analyzing the samples and not differences in the formulation. Blackstone employed measurement techniques more generally employed in analyzing used oils, while SRI employed methods more usually utilized for new multigrade engine oils. The samples provided to both labs were new oils. New oils that have not been subjected to shear often require higher dilution rates in the elemental analysis measured by ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma) as indicated in method ASTM D5185.
 

jfriese

Active Member
For what it's worth, I've been running Amsoil 80-90 gear oil with 30 to 50 percent Lucas oil stabilizer in my Amphicar transmissions for 12 years now. The original transmission in one of my cars has only had the seals changed, so it has never been torn down. The car has about 20k miles on it and shifts perfectly with no performance sign of synchro wear. I run Amsoil 20-50 synthetic in the engines and if I get around to it I add some "Hi-Zinc" additive to it. I don't change the oil often though.

John Friese
67 White
67 Red
 
As John says. Amsoil is proven in Amphicar transmission (well over 20 years here) and works superbly. No need or no sense in using anything else. My dad was working with the people at a supplier to Rover group who discovered the problem with GL5 way back in the 1980s. At that time oil was GL4, the GL5 standard introduced then included an EP adaptive so it performed better in new cars (allowing increased service intervals) and was initially thought to be fully backwards compatible so GL4 was no longer supplied or available. Problem is the EP additive in most GL5 dissolves yellow metals (brass and copper washers in particular) after a few weeks so GL4 was re-introduced for classics. There is now a GL5 which is safe with yellow metals of which there are some in the Amphicar transmission but Amsoil never had the problem so stick with that.
Engine oil needs to be a quality 20/50, Triumph engine doesn't care if it's synthetic or not and the zinc thing (ZDDP) isn't an issue in our cars. We prefer conventional oil changed once a year in our Amphicars as the Triumph block design means some fuel does get in to the crankcase (which reduces the effectiveness of any oil) so not a lot of point paying a premium for synthetic.
Different but related, most important to change fuel lines and any rubber parts in the fuel system if they are over 10 years old because of Ethanol. Dad says Mike doesn't like technical subjects discussed on this website so I'll leave it there !
Cameron.
 

mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
I don't know where the statement regarding "Mike does not like technical subjects discussed on this website" originated, but that is patently false. That said, it does not mean that myself or any of the amphicar "experts" on the forum will always agree on the best technical solution and debates can get intense at times. Not a bad thing by any stretch. We are all here to learn and share but yes, we have had individuals stop participating on the forums because someone disagreed with or challenged their expertise.

Many owners have been happy with amsoil in the gearbox so seems like a good fit. My issue with amsoil has always been that they seem to rely more on anecdotal evidence than published science or standards.

For motor oil, zddp is absolutely essential for any flat tappet engine, and this includes Triumph engines like the one used by Amphicar. Check out any of the British car forums. Fortunately,not here are now many options. Here is just one article.

http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/zddpUK.htm
 
Sorry if that upset you Mike. This is what you sent to my dad in 2010 and is why, although very much part of the Amphicar world, you don't see him on here !
Regards,
Cameron.

From: mike_israel [mailto:amphicarlovers@amphicar770.com]
Sent: 23 August 2010 15:00
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20865] Re: Re Synthetic oil
NOT ANOTHER "what oil thread". See below as posted here previously and stolen from another forum ...
============================================
OK, here is the skinny..again

There are several types of sythetic the base stock is what differentates them.
The best base stock is Polyol-ester (Redline & Motul)
Next best Di-ester (Royal Purple, Amsoil, Neo)
Next is polyolefin polyamine (Mobil 1)
Hydrocracked (Syntec, Valvoline)
Finally regular dyno oils
In terms of a daily driver, just pick the synthetic you like the sound of and change it every 5k...it ain't gonna make a hill of beans difference over the life of a street driven motor!! Your Amphicar essentially has a tractor engine, it is not built to anywhere near the tolerannces of a V-tec.
BTW, the racing industry DOES NOT use the same Mobil 1 you buy off the shelf, true racing oils do not contain detergents. A racing engine is typically rebuilt long before any issues with deposit build up occur. Also, racing oils are usually not multigrades, they are straight weight oils....
blah blah blah blah blah.....do a search
If they were the same price, I'd buy Motul / Redline every time and twice on Sunday

-----------------------------------------------

Yes Mike, comments like that are why not much is posted on your forum any more !
A lot of Amphicar people have gone back to sharing info between friends with Email, it avoids the hostility although also means those new to the Amphicar world miss out.
Irony is none of us discussing this particular and important oil topic live in the USA so the comments below listing USA market products are, frankly, total Bollocks.
Thank you and goodnight.

David C in the UK.

 

mike_israel

Amphicar Forum Admin
Staff member
Cameron, certainly nothing upsetting. I simply did not want anyone thinking technical discussions are somehow not welcomed.

Yes, your Dad is highly regarded by myself and many other members of the community as one of the foremost authorities and contributors. If a quote that was cut and pasted directly from another British car forum, almost 5 years ago and directed at no one individual, came across as offensive or as a personal attack, then I do apologize for that. Perhaps terms like "bollocks" or "hill of beans" have a much more profane or hostile meaning than us yanks are aware of????

Your Dad is certainly always welcome here as are you. Even if we may not always agree on topics like motor oil, I have a lot of respect for him and hold him in highest regard as do most of the members here.

Mike
 

okey0

Member
For what it's worth, I've been running Amsoil 80-90 gear oil with 30 to 50 percent Lucas oil stabilizer in my Amphicar transmissions for 12 years now. The original transmission in one of my cars has only had the seals changed, so it has never been torn down. The car has about 20k miles on it and shifts perfectly with no performance sign of synchro wear. I run Amsoil 20-50 synthetic in the engines and if I get around to it I add some "Hi-Zinc" additive to it. I don't change the oil often though.

John Friese
67 White
67 Red
John:
what is the Lucas product that you use? Is it just called "oil stabilizer" or is it one of their gear oils? the pic below is what I consider their oil stabilizer--is this what you mix in?
 

dougklink

Member
I use the Amsoil 80/90 marine transmission lube as it is designed to continue to lubricate effectively with up to 10% water contamination.
 

jfriese

Active Member
okay0,

Yes, that's the stuff. They have it available in regular or synthetic nowadays but I started mixing the Lucas regular version with Amsoil synthetic oil years ago and it has worked fine.

John Friese
67 White
67 Red
 

jfriese

Active Member
dougklink,

I haven't used their marine gear lube simply because I DON'T want it to mix with the oil. I have a dipstick into the land tranny and check the oil after each days run. If small bubbles appear on the dipstick those bubbles are water and I know to drain and change the gear oil immediately. I only had that happen once and after the gear lube change there were still a couple of bubbles so I drove the car rather hard for half an hour to evaporate any remaining water. Those trannys run hot under continuous load and will evaporate small bits of water. I then fixed the problem (a loose gear case cover) and all was well. That was many years ago and the tranny still runs quiet.

John Friese
67 White
67 Red
 
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