Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Activities Agreement)

[Ron Green]

A few months ago the Amphicar and the possibility of it not allowed to operate on Pennsylvania (PA) waterways was a close reality. That would include all Amphi's and not just those from the State. This came about due to one of our members simply operating his car (no issues) and an overzealous park ranger.

I spoke to the head State Park Director (John) who is a very nice guy and collects antique Jeeps. Without John the PA Boat & Fish Commission was within a hair of ruling no Amphicar's on any waterways. John negotiated with the PA Boat & Fish Commission to allow us on the non state Park waterways, explaining to them we are Coastguard approved. Now the catch: in order for the Amphicar to operate on State Park waterways they will require IAOC to enter into a 10 year Special Activities Agreement that solves the problem.

The board has reviewed and approved this agreement though basically it is not applicable to an Amphicar. This is what the State Parks required, no option. The agreement will be signed and placed in the Treasurer's paperwork along with our Trademark documents of which will be passed on to the next board. There is nothing in this agreement that would hurt the club liability wise, and insurance is the responsibly of the operator.

It is a rather lengthy agreement which talks about parades and temporary displays, etc. I will mail a copy to all PA Amphicar owners. I can make also copies for those interested. A write up will be placed in the Nov / Dec newsletter as the current issue is complete. Note: for both in and out of State owners there are no fees to you (including a boat ramp) but you must display your boat license on the side of Amphi. The outcome could have been much worse and we can only hope that this doesn't spread to other States.

This was a very time consuming process for all of us. I would like to thank the board for acting quickly and responsibly on this important matter.

Ron Green
IAOC President

 

[Midwest Amphicar]

This is issue is more important than parts. Restrictions are growing. StillWater Mn. Amphicars are almost not allowed also. Perhaps we need to use our resources for a lawyer. I could miss a few newsletters! Do We need to join SEMA or other like minded group? Later Dave the Wave

 

[Bilgemaster]

I must have missed something about it in the Wheels & Waves
newsletter or on these Forums, so I am just curious: What on earth
precipitated an Amphicar banning proposal in Pennsylvania? I mean,
it's not like the Amish there are running amok with their high speed
water entries flinging soggy waffles at bystanders, is it?
Seriously, how did the topic of Amphicars even come up as an issue on
the Pennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission's radar scope over forty
years after the last new one left the showroom? I tried searching
their website at http://www.fish.state.pa.us for more info, but of
course their site search server is buggered...maybe it's clogged with
trout guts again. But Google searches within the
www.fish.state.pa.us domain for "amphicar", "amphibious vehicles" and
so forth also gave no hits. So what gives?

Confused,
Bilgey
(Whose arguably most romantic moment in his life entailed being
chased around a used book bin by an Amish gal about 30 miles out of
Intercourse while en route to an Amphi Club gathering in the
Adirondacks...<Homer Simpson Voice On> Mmmmm...Bon-nets!...<Homer
Simpson Voice Off> [ More on this topic here: http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=GsfVw9xxoNY ] )


On Sep 12, 2008, at 4:14 PM, Ron Green wrote:

> A few months ago the Amphicar and the possibility of it not allowed
> to operate on Pennsylvania (PA) waterways was a close reality. That
> would include all Amphi's and not just those from the State. This
> came about due to one of our members simply operating his car (no
> issues) and an overzealous park ranger.
>
> I spoke to the head State Park Director (John) who is a very nice
> guy and collects antique Jeeps. Without John the PA Boat & Fish
> Commission was within a hair of ruling no Amphicar's on any
> waterways. John negotiated with the PA Boat & Fish Commission to
> allow us on the non state Park waterways, explaining to them we are
> Coastguard approved. Now the catch: in order for the Amphicar to
> operate on State Park waterways they will require IAOC to enter
> into a 10 year Special Activities Agreement that solves the problem.
>
> The board has reviewed and approved this agreement though basically
> it is not applicable to an Amphicar. This is what the State Parks
> required, no option. The agreement will be signed and placed in the
> Treasurer's paperwork along with our Trademark documents of which
> will be passed on to the next board. There is nothing in this
> agreement that would hurt the club liability wise, and insurance is
> the responsibly of the operator.
>
> It is a rather lengthy agreement which talks about parades and
> temporary displays, etc. I will mail a copy to all PA Amphicar
> owners. I can make also copies for those interested. A write up
> will be placed in the Nov / Dec newsletter as the current issue is
> complete. Note: for both in and out of State owners there are no
> fees to you (including a boat ramp) but you must display your boat
> license on the side of Amphi. The outcome could have been much
> worse and we can only hope that this doesn't spread to other States.
>
> This was a very time consuming process for all of us. I would like
> to thank the board for acting quickly and responsibly on this
> important matter.
>
> Ron Green
> IAOC President
>
>

 

[Ron Green]

Dave & All,

I believe the issue is behind us, at least in PA. We do have at least one lawyer in IAOC and maybe us contacting him if future issues come up would be a good idea. I know that from the Amphicar trademark procurement a few years back the lawyer bills can get somewhat expensive. We all need to keep our eyes and ears open for possible future issues that may effect Amphi’s and us. In this particular case a letter / notice was sent to our member who forwarded it on to the IAOC board. The Director of the PA State Parks by chance only lives a few miles from my house. I even offered to take him and his staff a ride. Our conversations were good and he even understood and accepted the IAOC’s 9.9 HP statement. If this crops up in other States it may not go as well?

Joining SEMA may not be a bad idea to keep abreast of things. I do follow the major bills that are proposed against the antique car hobby through the Antique Automobile Club of America (AACA), of which I am a member and serve as a board member (Gettysburg Region). The AACA has 60,000 members and is the largest club of its kind in the USA. They do have some clout if a bad bill arises.
My biggest fear would be all the Ranger Smith’s from the different States sitting around BS’s at their conventions with this subject coming up for a topic of conversation. In our case rather than fight it out with Ranger Barney Fife we went to the head guy and it worked.

SEMA SAN - SEMA ACTION NETWORK

Ron Green

 

[Ron Green]

Bilgey & All,

An overzealous park ranger who cited a 2001 bulletin issued from the PA Boat & Fish Commission started the whole thing. It states that a vessel must be designed for the sole purpose of water use or something like that. I don’t have it in front of me as it is at work unfortunately. The bulletin’s intent was to stop some idiot from strapping a outboard motor on barrels, wooden pallets, piece of plywood, etc and then using it as a boat. Similar to some of the redneck pictures you see on the internet.

The PA Park director had to contact (and meet) the PA Boat & Fish Commission brass for a ruling on the Amphicar as its sole purpose is not strictly a boat. My argument was that it is a dual function vehicle that serves both purposes and has all the boating and land requirements, including registrations. By chance my Amphi was Coast Guard inspected last year and passed with the exception of not carrying a first aid kit however the greasy red rag did pass as a distress signal device. I sent them a copy of the passed inspection form and I believe that really helped the cause.

This all just came to closure the other day and we wanted to wait until it was resolved to place something in the newsletter or post on this form.

Red tape at its finest!

Ron Green

 

[seaweed]

Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Ac...

Not sure that a state can prohibit a boat, validly licensed by another
jurisdiction, from using the waterways. When the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
gave up part of its sovereignty and joined the United
Sates, they signed an agreement stating that the would take no action to
interfere with interstate commerce.
A blanket prohibition on a specific type of boat might violate that
agreement.

Could New York next prohibit Chris Craft boats from using its waterways?



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[Ed Price]

Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Ac...

_____

From: seaweed [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:36 AM
To: edprice@cox.net
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20168] Amphicar & PA Waterways
(Special Ac...


Not sure that a state can prohibit a boat, validly licensed by another
jurisdiction, from using the waterways. When the Commonwealth of
Pennsylvania
gave up part of its sovereignty and joined the United
Sates, they signed an agreement stating that the would take no action to
interfere with interstate commerce.
A blanket prohibition on a specific type of boat might violate that
agreement.

Could New York next prohibit Chris Craft boats from using its waterways?




Most any jurisdiction can pass a law to do anything. People aggrieved by
this can then bring a court action to reverse or block the law. The key
problem is that the jurisdiction usually has a bunch of lawyers with lots of
available resources to counter a citizen's actions.

An agency like the one in Pennsylvania has even more latitude, since this
isn't Pennsylvania state law, but just a regulation created by the agency.
The agency already has a number of regulations that bear on the TYPE of
crafts that can be used on certain waters. For instance, some waters are
horsepower limited, some allow no powerboats at all, some allow operation of
amphibious aircraft at designated locations. Many of these restrictions even
make sense.

The original intent of this regulation was to ban bizarre, haphazard
watercraft, like the "redneck" bass boats made from a lawn chair, a few
plastic jugs and an outboard motor. Other examples might be an upside down
kitchen table with an outboard. (Think Darwin award candidates.) They worded
the regulation to say that craft "not specifically designed to be a boat"
were not allowed. They didn't specify Amphicars or DUKW's, they specified
craft by "design."

The problem arises when the regulation is interpreted. An Amphi is
specifically designed to be a boat AND a car, so you can't say that it was
specifically designed to ONLY be a boat. OTOH, we can argue that the USCG
recognizes an Amphi as a seaworthy craft. Ron Green's Amphi specifically
passed a USCG inspection. We could also argue that amphibious aircraft are
also not "boats only", yet they are specifically allowed by this agency's
regulations.

Bureaucracies are not noted for providing reasonable interpretations of
regulations. Regulations are usually interpreted in maximum CYA mode. Isn't
this fun? The best we can hope for is to keep a low profile at present. It's
possible that a pack of rabid beavers will eliminate the sole instigator of
this interpretation, and everything will be conveniently forgotten.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA USA
61 Rust Guppy

 

[seaweed]

Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Ac...

Ed
Very nicely presented.
Seaweed



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[azpaul50]

Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Ac...

Jeeez, Ed... I never thought of that. I had a "documented" (like a ship) Pantera Boat (28') in the late 80's that didn't even require state registration. They did make me get a 6-pack Captain's License I got in Lusby, Maryland thru a 2-week school. Jeez... I haven't seen it in years... boy, that would be impressive to whip out to Fish and Game! *lol* That documented boat was a hassle as each new cop on the Patuxent or Potomac River stopped me until I hit the Chesapeak (no bow numbers). Want to have fun? Buzz by the Jefferson Memorial going 55 MPH after going in at Bowling AFB. All those sculler guys (and crews) out there got all mad all the way up to the Washington Yacht Club (Lots of senators and pretty, YOUNGER ladies on those decks). The speed limit signs all faced inward rather than facing you as you progress. Heck, I didn't notice that and the first no wake buoy I saw was back on the Anacostia with flights going in and out of National buzzing you all the way!! Are you sure these Amphi's only do 7MPH? - Azpaul of the Western Amphi Fleet

To: azpaul50@hotmail.comSubject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20168] Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Ac...Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 14:45:43 -0400From:



_____ From: seaweed [mailto:] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:36 AMTo: edprice@cox.netSubject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20168] Amphicar & PA Waterways(Special Ac...Not sure that a state can prohibit a boat, validly licensed by another jurisdiction, from using the waterways. When the Commonwealth ofPennsylvania gave up part of its sovereignty and joined the United Sates, they signed an agreement stating that the would take no action to interfere with interstate commerce.A blanket prohibition on a specific type of boat might violate that agreement. Could New York next prohibit Chris Craft boats from using its waterways?Most any jurisdiction can pass a law to do anything. People aggrieved bythis can then bring a court action to reverse or block the law. The keyproblem is that the jurisdiction usually has a bunch of lawyers with lots ofavailable resources to counter a citizen's actions.An agency like the one in Pennsylvania has even more latitude, since thisisn't Pennsylvania state law, but just a regulation created by the agency.The agency already has a number of regulations that bear on the TYPE ofcrafts that can be used on certain waters. For instance, some waters arehorsepower limited, some allow no powerboats at all, some allow operation ofamphibious aircraft at designated locations. Many of these restrictions evenmake sense.The original intent of this regulation was to ban bizarre, haphazardwatercraft, like the "redneck" bass boats made from a lawn chair, a fewplastic jugs and an outboard motor. Other examples might be an upside downkitchen table with an outboard. (Think Darwin award candidates.) They wordedthe regulation to say that craft "not specifically designed to be a boat"were not allowed. They didn't specify Amphicars or DUKW's, they specifiedcraft by "design." The problem arises when the regulation is interpreted. An Amphi isspecifically designed to be a boat AND a car, so you can't say that it wasspecifically designed to ONLY be a boat. OTOH, we can argue that the USCGrecognizes an Amphi as a seaworthy craft. Ron Green's Amphi specificallypassed a USCG inspection. We could also argue that amphibious aircraft arealso not "boats only", yet they are specifically allowed by this agency'sregulations.Bureaucracies are not noted for providing reasonable interpretations ofregulations. Regulations are usually interpreted in maximum CYA mode. Isn'tthis fun? The best we can hope for is to keep a low profile at present. It'spossible that a pack of rabid beavers will eliminate the sole instigator ofthis interpretation, and everything will be conveniently forgotten.Ed PriceEl Cajon, CA USA61 Rust Guppy

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[Ed Price]

Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Ac...

_____

From: azpaul50 [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:45 PM
To: edprice@cox.net
Subject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20168] Amphicar & PA Waterways
(Special Ac...


Jeeez, Ed... I never thought of that. I had a "documented" (like a ship)
Pantera Boat (28') in the late 80's that didn't even require state
registration. They did make me get a 6-pack Captain's License I got in
Lusby, Maryland thru a 2-week school. Jeez... I haven't seen it in years...
boy, that would be impressive to whip out to Fish and Game! *lol* That
documented boat was a hassle as each new cop on the Patuxent or Potomac
River stopped me until I hit the Chesapeak (no bow numbers).

Are you sure these Amphi's only do 7MPH?
Azpaul of the Western Amphi Fleet



Way back around the end of the 1960's, I owned a 50' down-east style diesel
trawler that I operated in the New York City harbor area. My favorite
day-trip was to circumnavigate Manhattan Island; with a >40' mast, I had to
have all those Harlem River bridges open for me. The vessel was USCG
"Documented", something closely akin to a dog pedigree. (Among other things,
you had to prove a continuous line of ownership back to the manufacturer.)
The main value of Documenting a vessel seemed to be that you could avoid
needing any particular state's vessel registration system, thus keeping your
expensive toy off the personal property tax system. I used to get stopped
when I would go into New Jersey waters down around Highlands or Rumson or
Red Bank, but never in New York or Connecticut.

Wish I still had that very impressive USCG certificate, proclaiming me as
"Master and Owner of the Oil Screw Morning Star." <g>

Although Amphis are limited by Physics to about 7 MPH in water, they still
can push a lot of water beyond the stern. (Ever see the wake made by an
inland rivers towboat?) In a narrow channel, your Amphi can probably
generate a rolling wake that would be considered a violation of "no wake"
requirements. OTOH, I have seen some tiny hydroplanes that could skim by at
50 MPH, and hardly ripple the water.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA USA
61 Rust Guppy

 

[Ron Green]

Well put Ed.

I think most of us would agree that the world is changing regarding regulations, etc especially since 911. Then you have the Barney Fife's who make up rules as they go and interrupt things they really don't understand. Thankfully the head guy that makes the decisions is typically reasonable.

azpaul50 states "Want to have fun? Buzz by the Jefferson Memorial going 55 MPH after going in at Bowling AFB." Or putting amphi right up to the screen house intake of a nuclear power plant, TMI in this case. Used to be no problem until a few years ago, I was wondering what all these strange orange buoys were that are now placed in the middle of the river. I got quickly got the hint while glancing over and seeing the armed guards.

Ron Green

 

[azpaul50]

Ron - *lol* I'm anxious to see what kind of trouble I get into once I get my car fixed. Oh, that was Bolling AFB now that I think about it although I know from being an old Colorado river rat that the Amphi won't be feasible on most of the Colorado. Each summer holiday we get 60,000 people here on the Colorado who congregate mostly on two large mid-river sandbars about 8 miles up river from Imperial Dam and 3 miles up from Martinez Lake. I had dreams of cruisin up in the Amphi and then actually driving onto the sandbar (to give autographs, of course). *lol* Kewl...but it would be trying to defeat the downstream current (and huge wakes) at least that fast so I suppose I won't be doing that. There doesn't seem to be any prohibitions on the Colorado as the river traffic has everything on it from tubers to 100MPH Power boats (like my last official boat), all shallow draft. Even the bass boats here do 80MPH zipping around during tourneys. The worst threat is the jet skiers who end up killing themselves (and regular boaters) in numbers each summer. Unlike Lake Havasu, the river here is narrow with most traffic coming at each other. One thing I've noticed is that I haven't seen anything in the Amphi photo archives showing one against our majestic desert backdrops. One day I hope to get a few shots like that IF I ever get Blub seaworthy. I should get her back in the next 2 weeks from Theo. - azpaul50 of the Western Amphi Fleet (currently in dry dock).

To: azpaul50@hotmail.comSubject: RE: [General Amphicar Discussion-t-20168] Re: Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Activities Agreement)Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:18:21 -0400From:



Well put Ed. I think most of us would agree that the world is changing regarding regulations, etc especially since 911. Then you have the Barney Fife's who make up rules as they go and interrupt things they really don't understand. Thankfully the head guy that makes the decisions are typically reasonable. azpaul50 states "Want to have fun? Buzz by the Jefferson Memorial going 55 MPH after going in at Bowling AFB." Or putting amphi right up to the screen house intake of a nuclear power plant, TMI in this case. Used to be no problem until several years ago, I was wondering what all these strange orange buoys were that are now placed in the middle of the river. I got quickly got the hint while glancing over and seeing the armed guards.Ron Green

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[mike_israel]

Amphicar & PA Waterways (Special Ac...

Most small waterways have nothing to do with interstate commerce.* Indeed, many states have placed restrictions on things like JetSkis, Horsepower, etc.* I think it would be a tough case proving that Amphi's are used* as vessels of interstate commerce.
*
Kudos to Ron and others for keeping on top of this.
*
There are other organizations that lobby and act on behalf of classic car / boat owners.* Ron mentioned AACA.* Hagerty, who many of us use to insure our Amphis, also has a very active lobby group.*
*
I think the changing climate also speaks to the need for responsible Amphicar swimming.** If your engine is leaking quarts of oil and you also need to run your bilge pump constantly, people will inevitable notice the oil slick that results from those "boat cars".* Get in an accident without PFDs, insurance, registration, etc. and it all brings bad publicity which could lead to restrictions for everyone.* I do recall that a few years back, the IAOC was discussing that participants in events like Celina should need to provide prooof of insurance / registration.* Might not be a bad idea.
*
Mike

 

[mike_israel]

Ron,

I am heading off to a PA State Park so I just printed off a copy of the agreement.

One item in that really jumps out,

"Sponsor shall notify the park manager with 48 hours of notice when sponsor plans to operate the Amphicar vessel on one of the above stated state park waterways".

Yikes!!

Mike

 

[Ron Green]

I am told that this language pertains to those holding an event in the park and isn't really applicable for what we are doing, putting around in the water. The agreement unfortunately is pretty much a canned document and can not be changed or modified. Please let us know if anyone has any issues in the PA State Parks.

 

[mike_israel]

I am glad to report that the only encounters during my trip to lake Nockamixon were the usual hordes of photographers and people*asking questions.* I saw at least two park rangers who confronted us with a smile and a wave.