1500cc Triumph & cooling

[glennyrosa]

My last post of the desire of more hp led me to the Amphicar
website. I had read where the 1500 Spitfire engine would bolt right
in. Further investigation indicates that the 1500 has a cooling
problem. Right now my temp stays pretty much in the center except
when pulling long hills or asking for too much power on the water
which converts gas to noise with no speed increase. I guess that
I'm pretty lucky in that respect when it comes to cooling from
listening to the whoas of others with serious problems in that
area. We have had triple digit temps in the NW this summer and the
thought of adding an electric cooling fan has never crossed my
mind. Whose to say that my temp gage or sending unit isn't fubar.
I could be sailing in bliss whilst I burn up my motor.

It sounds as if I should leave well enough alone and to avoid steep
ramps. I would be interested in hearing from others who have or
have tried the Spitfire engine. My experience with putting larger
engines in airplanes has led mostly to disappointment. Either the
performance improvement was too little gain for the expense, or the
flight characteristics went from good to something of a lesser
value. Not always. But mostly.

One thought: I have never driven my Amphi with the top up. Could
the top create a boundry layer or a reverse flow of turulent air
that inhibits the intake of cooling air? I could vision a dead area
over the loovers where there would be no ram air effect in cruise.
It would be like running your car with a load on the engine but not
moving. Anyone remember riding in the back of a pickup truck and
finding that one spot where the wind doesn't blow at all? Just a
thought.

glenn

 

[glennyrosa]

My last post of the desire of more hp led me to the Amphicar
website. I had read where the 1500 Spitfire engine would bolt right
in. Further investigation indicates that the 1500 has a cooling
problem. Right now my temp stays pretty much in the center except
when pulling long hills or asking for too much power on the water
which converts gas to noise with no speed increase. I guess that
I'm pretty lucky in that respect when it comes to cooling from
listening to the whoas of others with serious problems in that
area. We have had triple digit temps in the NW this summer and the
thought of adding an electric cooling fan has never crossed my
mind. Whose to say that my temp gage or sending unit isn't fubar.
I could be sailing in bliss whilst I burn up my motor.

It sounds as if I should leave well enough alone and to avoid steep
ramps. I would be interested in hearing from others who have or
have tried the Spitfire engine. My experience with putting larger
engines in airplanes has led mostly to disappointment. Either the
performance improvement was too little gain for the expense, or the
flight characteristics went from good to something of a lesser
value. Not always. But mostly.

One thought: I have never driven my Amphi with the top up. Could
the top create a boundry layer or a reverse flow of turulent air
that inhibits the intake of cooling air? I could vision a dead area
over the loovers where there would be no ram air effect in cruise.
It would be like running your car with a load on the engine but not
moving. Anyone remember riding in the back of a pickup truck and
finding that one spot where the wind doesn't blow at all? Just a
thought.

glenn

 

[ECR staff]

I'd like some expert advice on the 1500cc install/ cooling as well.
Is it doable with aluminum rads and such. When you search the web
there appears to be a couple of sites that say it won't work, but
these could be outdated and/or they could have been talking about
putting a 1500 into an Amphi with a neglected old radiator.
What is the real scoop o'mighty experts. Some extra torque seems like
a welcome thing to me.




ECR
21 Tolman Road, Warren, ME 04864
ph: 207-594-8086 fax: 207-594-8120

http://www.eastcoastrover.com

ECR emails are for information exchange only, they are not quotes or
estimates. All work at ECR is done on a time and materials basis.
Install costs and overall project costs can not be given as used and
vintage vehicles vary greatly in condition.

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/FAQ.html

We suggest all 1993-1995 NAS Defender owners read this page:
http://www.eastcoastrover.com/110oillines.html

 

[ECR staff]

I'd like some expert advice on the 1500cc install/ cooling as well.
Is it doable with aluminum rads and such. When you search the web
there appears to be a couple of sites that say it won't work, but
these could be outdated and/or they could have been talking about
putting a 1500 into an Amphi with a neglected old radiator.
What is the real scoop o'mighty experts. Some extra torque seems like
a welcome thing to me.




ECR
21 Tolman Road, Warren, ME 04864
ph: 207-594-8086 fax: 207-594-8120

http://www.eastcoastrover.com

ECR emails are for information exchange only, they are not quotes or
estimates. All work at ECR is done on a time and materials basis.
Install costs and overall project costs can not be given as used and
vintage vehicles vary greatly in condition.

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/FAQ.html

We suggest all 1993-1995 NAS Defender owners read this page:
http://www.eastcoastrover.com/110oillines.html

 

[a_colo_native]

THE major problem with the 1500cc in an Amphi is the piston speed. The
1500cc is a stroked 1300cc. The low gears of the Amphi will raise the
RPMs up and the piston speed (the speed that the pistons go to the
top, reverses direction and goes to the bottom of the stroke) is
enough that it could cause the the pistons to grenade or come apart.
They can't take that for long because the pistons travel further in
the same amount of time as the 1147 or 1300.

A better choice is the 1300cc. It does not have the cooling concerns
and it can take the higher RPMs of the Amphi at hiway speeds. Look for
the large journal 1300 model.

There are others here who can give you more in depth info on these
engines.

John Bevins
Rocky Mountain Amphicar
Webmaster IAOC

 

[a_colo_native]

THE major problem with the 1500cc in an Amphi is the piston speed. The
1500cc is a stroked 1300cc. The low gears of the Amphi will raise the
RPMs up and the piston speed (the speed that the pistons go to the
top, reverses direction and goes to the bottom of the stroke) is
enough that it could cause the the pistons to grenade or come apart.
They can't take that for long because the pistons travel further in
the same amount of time as the 1147 or 1300.

A better choice is the 1300cc. It does not have the cooling concerns
and it can take the higher RPMs of the Amphi at hiway speeds. Look for
the large journal 1300 model.

There are others here who can give you more in depth info on these
engines.

John Bevins
Rocky Mountain Amphicar
Webmaster IAOC

 

[ECR staff]

>
>A better choice is the 1300cc. It does not have the cooling concerns
>and it can take the higher RPMs of the Amphi at hiway speeds. Look for
>the large journal 1300 model.

What about punching out the smaller engines to larger bore?
I guess my bigger question is: Do performance mods to a 1147 or 1300
automatically mean overheat issues like some suggest, or with a
proper build and cooling add ons (alloy radiator and elec.fans) can
it mean a cool running Amphi.
I think I usually hear from originality folks and they all scream
"Don't do that!". I'm all for those who want originality, but I'm not
one of them. I want modern function with a classic look.
Thoughts?


ECR
21 Tolman Road, Warren, ME 04864
ph: 207-594-8086 fax: 207-594-8120

http://www.eastcoastrover.com

ECR emails are for information exchange only, they are not quotes or
estimates. All work at ECR is done on a time and materials basis.
Install costs and overall project costs can not be given as used and
vintage vehicles vary greatly in condition.

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/FAQ.html

We suggest all 1993-1995 NAS Defender owners read this page:
http://www.eastcoastrover.com/110oillines.html

 

[ECR staff]

>
>A better choice is the 1300cc. It does not have the cooling concerns
>and it can take the higher RPMs of the Amphi at hiway speeds. Look for
>the large journal 1300 model.

What about punching out the smaller engines to larger bore?
I guess my bigger question is: Do performance mods to a 1147 or 1300
automatically mean overheat issues like some suggest, or with a
proper build and cooling add ons (alloy radiator and elec.fans) can
it mean a cool running Amphi.
I think I usually hear from originality folks and they all scream
"Don't do that!". I'm all for those who want originality, but I'm not
one of them. I want modern function with a classic look.
Thoughts?


ECR
21 Tolman Road, Warren, ME 04864
ph: 207-594-8086 fax: 207-594-8120

http://www.eastcoastrover.com

ECR emails are for information exchange only, they are not quotes or
estimates. All work at ECR is done on a time and materials basis.
Install costs and overall project costs can not be given as used and
vintage vehicles vary greatly in condition.

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/FAQ.html

We suggest all 1993-1995 NAS Defender owners read this page:
http://www.eastcoastrover.com/110oillines.html

 

[David Chapman]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor="#ffffff">
<font face="Arial" size="2">Power equals heat - no way of avoiding that. A bigger or more efficient radiator is only part of the issue. Have to get heat away from the exhaust area and try and keep the transmission cool. Possible but difficult. The biggest problem with the 1500 is that it is never smooth. It's like going from a 6 cylinder to a 4 cylinder car. Same problem to some extent with the 1300 with the large crank. There is too much weight being thrown about in all directions by the huge crank for it to be as smooth as the 1147, especially at high revs. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">The small crank 1300 is best - not quite as powerfull as 1500 but a lot more than 1147 and retains the smoothness.</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Alternative is to tune the 1147, lots can be done. More info here:</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">www.amphicars.com/actengin.htm</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">David C</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>

 

[David Chapman]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor="#ffffff">
<font face="Arial" size="2">Power equals heat - no way of avoiding that. A bigger or more efficient radiator is only part of the issue. Have to get heat away from the exhaust area and try and keep the transmission cool. Possible but difficult. The biggest problem with the 1500 is that it is never smooth. It's like going from a 6 cylinder to a 4 cylinder car. Same problem to some extent with the 1300 with the large crank. There is too much weight being thrown about in all directions by the huge crank for it to be as smooth as the 1147, especially at high revs. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">The small crank 1300 is best - not quite as powerfull as 1500 but a lot more than 1147 and retains the smoothness.</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Alternative is to tune the 1147, lots can be done. More info here:</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">www.amphicars.com/actengin.htm</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">David C</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>

 

[John Friese]

Hi,

Both of my Amphicars have 1300 engines in them and I've played with
all the major variations of those engines. A number of people run
1500 engines in their cars with no overheating problems. Most are
running original radiators but I know one person who had a radiator
done from aluminum but I don't think that's usually necessary.

I've talked to many people about the differences between the small
crank 1300 and the large crank version and both of them have their
advocates. I've tried both. I prefer the small crank version but
only because I can use a water pump from a large crank engine and slow
the water pump, and fan, down to reduce the fan noise at highway
speeds because the crank pulley is smaller on the small crank engines.
Generally the large crank version is considered more durable but not
as well suited for race cars because of it's higher crank mass. This
isn't much of a factor in Amphicar usage though.

All 1500's are large crank engines so, for me, it causes too much fan
noise for me but folks with electric fans might be able to get around
that problem. So far, I haven't found an electric fan system that I
like so I use the original Amphicar fans. I've tried flex fans to try
to reduce noise but they don't cool well enough to work.

A 1300 engine will make the car run up to about 85 MPH and it's
performance in general driving is much improved. The 1147's do run
smoother but that's not a big deal to me. I also like the improved
performance of the Weber DGV-5A carb. I have some photos of my big
engine system in the photos page.

The 1500 engines are great around town and make the car drive pretty
much like a normal car but the long stroke of those engines means it's
not a good idea to run them above 70 MPH for long. At least that's
what some people have told me.

I'm currently pulling a 1300 out of one of my cars to have some work
done on it and while it's out, I'm dropping in a 1500 that I had built
up a few years ago. Doing the design work on my clutches, I pulled
engines many times and so I'm pretty fast at it.

Originally, I had one car with a 1300 and the other with the 1147. I
found I rarely drove the 1147 because it wasn't as much fun to drive
as the 1300, so after a year or so, I put a 1300 in my second car too.

John Friese
67 White
67 Red






--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "glennyrosa" <glennyrosa@...>
wrote:
>
> My last post of the desire of more hp led me to the Amphicar
> website. I had read where the 1500 Spitfire engine would bolt right
> in. Further investigation indicates that the 1500 has a cooling
> problem. Right now my temp stays pretty much in the center except
> when pulling long hills or asking for too much power on the water
> which converts gas to noise with no speed increase. I guess that
> I'm pretty lucky in that respect when it comes to cooling from
> listening to the whoas of others with serious problems in that
> area. We have had triple digit temps in the NW this summer and the
> thought of adding an electric cooling fan has never crossed my
> mind. Whose to say that my temp gage or sending unit isn't fubar.
> I could be sailing in bliss whilst I burn up my motor.
>
> It sounds as if I should leave well enough alone and to avoid steep
> ramps. I would be interested in hearing from others who have or
> have tried the Spitfire engine. My experience with putting larger
> engines in airplanes has led mostly to disappointment. Either the
> performance improvement was too little gain for the expense, or the
> flight characteristics went from good to something of a lesser
> value. Not always. But mostly.
>
> One thought: I have never driven my Amphi with the top up. Could
> the top create a boundry layer or a reverse flow of turulent air
> that inhibits the intake of cooling air? I could vision a dead area
> over the loovers where there would be no ram air effect in cruise.
> It would be like running your car with a load on the engine but not
> moving. Anyone remember riding in the back of a pickup truck and
> finding that one spot where the wind doesn't bl





ow at all? Just a
> thought.
>
> glenn
>

 

[John Friese]

Hi,

Both of my Amphicars have 1300 engines in them and I've played with
all the major variations of those engines. A number of people run
1500 engines in their cars with no overheating problems. Most are
running original radiators but I know one person who had a radiator
done from aluminum but I don't think that's usually necessary.

I've talked to many people about the differences between the small
crank 1300 and the large crank version and both of them have their
advocates. I've tried both. I prefer the small crank version but
only because I can use a water pump from a large crank engine and slow
the water pump, and fan, down to reduce the fan noise at highway
speeds because the crank pulley is smaller on the small crank engines.
Generally the large crank version is considered more durable but not
as well suited for race cars because of it's higher crank mass. This
isn't much of a factor in Amphicar usage though.

All 1500's are large crank engines so, for me, it causes too much fan
noise for me but folks with electric fans might be able to get around
that problem. So far, I haven't found an electric fan system that I
like so I use the original Amphicar fans. I've tried flex fans to try
to reduce noise but they don't cool well enough to work.

A 1300 engine will make the car run up to about 85 MPH and it's
performance in general driving is much improved. The 1147's do run
smoother but that's not a big deal to me. I also like the improved
performance of the Weber DGV-5A carb. I have some photos of my big
engine system in the photos page.

The 1500 engines are great around town and make the car drive pretty
much like a normal car but the long stroke of those engines means it's
not a good idea to run them above 70 MPH for long. At least that's
what some people have told me.

I'm currently pulling a 1300 out of one of my cars to have some work
done on it and while it's out, I'm dropping in a 1500 that I had built
up a few years ago. Doing the design work on my clutches, I pulled
engines many times and so I'm pretty fast at it.

Originally, I had one car with a 1300 and the other with the 1147. I
found I rarely drove the 1147 because it wasn't as much fun to drive
as the 1300, so after a year or so, I put a 1300 in my second car too.

John Friese
67 White
67 Red






--- In amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com, "glennyrosa" <glennyrosa@...>
wrote:
>
> My last post of the desire of more hp led me to the Amphicar
> website. I had read where the 1500 Spitfire engine would bolt right
> in. Further investigation indicates that the 1500 has a cooling
> problem. Right now my temp stays pretty much in the center except
> when pulling long hills or asking for too much power on the water
> which converts gas to noise with no speed increase. I guess that
> I'm pretty lucky in that respect when it comes to cooling from
> listening to the whoas of others with serious problems in that
> area. We have had triple digit temps in the NW this summer and the
> thought of adding an electric cooling fan has never crossed my
> mind. Whose to say that my temp gage or sending unit isn't fubar.
> I could be sailing in bliss whilst I burn up my motor.
>
> It sounds as if I should leave well enough alone and to avoid steep
> ramps. I would be interested in hearing from others who have or
> have tried the Spitfire engine. My experience with putting larger
> engines in airplanes has led mostly to disappointment. Either the
> performance improvement was too little gain for the expense, or the
> flight characteristics went from good to something of a lesser
> value. Not always. But mostly.
>
> One thought: I have never driven my Amphi with the top up. Could
> the top create a boundry layer or a reverse flow of turulent air
> that inhibits the intake of cooling air? I could vision a dead area
> over the loovers where there would be no ram air effect in cruise.
> It would be like running your car with a load on the engine but not
> moving. Anyone remember riding in the back of a pickup truck and
> finding that one spot where the wind doesn't bl





ow at all? Just a
> thought.
>
> glenn
>

 

[glennyrosa@comcast.net]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

<table>
Wow! I'm so confused. I read David Chapmins web info before I introduced this question. I'm a little confused with David's response. Capt'n B resolved my desire with the 1500cc engine. The 1300 sounds like a good alternative. I'll have to study the engine spec's a little closer. I'm not interested in the top end speed. I want the lower end torque to pull me outta the river. Big bore/short stroke. That's what the wife says anyway. I may be best off to fine tune what I have for now. I'm diesel kinda guy and would think that my little '814 banger Nissan truck motor would pull El Capitan in an ice storm. I'm afraid the tranny ratios may be outta sync like they'd be for a Spitfire engine mated to an Amphi tranny.

I also have had problems beaching alongfirm sandy bars. Can't do it. A seaplane amphib, no problem. Discouraging. I'm beginning to think that I need one of Duttons 4wd diesels for the Pacific NW. I love my car but I'm learningit's limitations fast. Need low end torque and/or 4wd for our steep ramps and beaches. The suitable ramps are few and far in betweenand I don't really enjoy pulling my'boat' outta the same ramp I entered. What's the point? I don't havta wait in traffic to cross the Columbia River on I-5 if I don't have to.

Time to explore the Willamette south of town. Maybe I'll find peace and tranquillity there.

Stuck in Oregon Glenn

ps: any comments on the Dutton would be great. not my 1st choice. it's just that i get bored going to the same ol' same ol' watering hole each time. need to explore more.

g
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message --------------

<span style="COLOR: white"></span> </blockquote></img>

 

[glennyrosa@comcast.net]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

<table>
Wow! I'm so confused. I read David Chapmins web info before I introduced this question. I'm a little confused with David's response. Capt'n B resolved my desire with the 1500cc engine. The 1300 sounds like a good alternative. I'll have to study the engine spec's a little closer. I'm not interested in the top end speed. I want the lower end torque to pull me outta the river. Big bore/short stroke. That's what the wife says anyway. I may be best off to fine tune what I have for now. I'm diesel kinda guy and would think that my little '814 banger Nissan truck motor would pull El Capitan in an ice storm. I'm afraid the tranny ratios may be outta sync like they'd be for a Spitfire engine mated to an Amphi tranny.

I also have had problems beaching alongfirm sandy bars. Can't do it. A seaplane amphib, no problem. Discouraging. I'm beginning to think that I need one of Duttons 4wd diesels for the Pacific NW. I love my car but I'm learningit's limitations fast. Need low end torque and/or 4wd for our steep ramps and beaches. The suitable ramps are few and far in betweenand I don't really enjoy pulling my'boat' outta the same ramp I entered. What's the point? I don't havta wait in traffic to cross the Columbia River on I-5 if I don't have to.

Time to explore the Willamette south of town. Maybe I'll find peace and tranquillity there.

Stuck in Oregon Glenn

ps: any comments on the Dutton would be great. not my 1st choice. it's just that i get bored going to the same ol' same ol' watering hole each time. need to explore more.

g
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message --------------

<span style="COLOR: white"></span> </blockquote></img>

 

[Larry & Nancy Solheim]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

Glenn, I'm a bit confused, too. It seems to me that you should have no problem driving up a ramp out of the water when in 1st gear. Perhaps you have another problem relating to engine timing or a slipping clutch? We are also based in the PacNW (although a bit futher north) and have also flat towed Amphi over 45K miles and launched/pulled out of innumerous lakes and rivers over the past 12 years or so. The only time I have had a ramp problem was when in 3rd gear (yeah, I did it) instead of 1st. --Larry

glennyrosa@comcast.net wrote: <blockquote class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <div id="ygrp-text"> Wow! I'm so confused. I read David Chapmins web info before I introduced this question. I'm a little confused with David's response. Capt'n B resolved my desire with the 1500cc engine. The 1300 sounds like a good alternative. I'll have to study the engine spec's a little closer. I'm not interested in the top end speed. I want the lower end torque to pull me outta the river. Big bore/short stroke. That's what the wife says anyway. I may be best off to fine tune what I have for now. I'm diesel kinda guy and would think that my little '814 banger Nissan truck motor would pull El Capitan in an ice storm. I'm afraid the tranny ratios may be outta sync like they'd be for a Spitfire engine mated to an Amphi tranny. I also have had problems beaching alongfirm sandy bars. Can't do it. A
seaplane amphib, no problem. Discouraging. I'm beginning to think that I need one of Duttons 4wd diesels for the Pacific NW. I love my car but I'm learningit's limitations fast. Need low end torque and/or 4wd for our steep ramps and beaches. The suitable ramps are few and far in betweenand I don't really enjoy pulling my'boat' outta the same ramp I entered. What's the point? I don't havta wait in traffic to cross the Columbia River on I-5 if I don't have to. Time to explore the Willamette south of town. Maybe I'll find peace and tranquillity there. Stuck in Oregon Glenn ps: any comments on the Dutton would be great. not my 1st choice. it's just that i get bored going to the same ol' same ol' watering hole each time. need to explore more. g <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">------------<wbr>-- Original message ------------<wbr>--

<span style="COLOR: white"></span></blockquote> </blockquote>


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[Larry & Nancy Solheim]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

Glenn, I'm a bit confused, too. It seems to me that you should have no problem driving up a ramp out of the water when in 1st gear. Perhaps you have another problem relating to engine timing or a slipping clutch? We are also based in the PacNW (although a bit futher north) and have also flat towed Amphi over 45K miles and launched/pulled out of innumerous lakes and rivers over the past 12 years or so. The only time I have had a ramp problem was when in 3rd gear (yeah, I did it) instead of 1st. --Larry

glennyrosa@comcast.net wrote: <blockquote class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <div id="ygrp-text"> Wow! I'm so confused. I read David Chapmins web info before I introduced this question. I'm a little confused with David's response. Capt'n B resolved my desire with the 1500cc engine. The 1300 sounds like a good alternative. I'll have to study the engine spec's a little closer. I'm not interested in the top end speed. I want the lower end torque to pull me outta the river. Big bore/short stroke. That's what the wife says anyway. I may be best off to fine tune what I have for now. I'm diesel kinda guy and would think that my little '814 banger Nissan truck motor would pull El Capitan in an ice storm. I'm afraid the tranny ratios may be outta sync like they'd be for a Spitfire engine mated to an Amphi tranny. I also have had problems beaching alongfirm sandy bars. Can't do it. A
seaplane amphib, no problem. Discouraging. I'm beginning to think that I need one of Duttons 4wd diesels for the Pacific NW. I love my car but I'm learningit's limitations fast. Need low end torque and/or 4wd for our steep ramps and beaches. The suitable ramps are few and far in betweenand I don't really enjoy pulling my'boat' outta the same ramp I entered. What's the point? I don't havta wait in traffic to cross the Columbia River on I-5 if I don't have to. Time to explore the Willamette south of town. Maybe I'll find peace and tranquillity there. Stuck in Oregon Glenn ps: any comments on the Dutton would be great. not my 1st choice. it's just that i get bored going to the same ol' same ol' watering hole each time. need to explore more. g <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">------------<wbr>-- Original message ------------<wbr>--

<span style="COLOR: white"></span></blockquote> </blockquote>


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[David Chapman]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor="#ffffff">
<font face="Arial" size="2">Johns comments are all good. The difference in smoothness is really only noticable between 1300 and 1500. You can't bore out an 1147 (the piston spacing was changed) to make it 1300 (actually 1296cc). The larger crank was more about cost saving than durability - logic says it should be better but not always the case. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">The large crank was made from about 1970 to the endin 1978. This was a dire time for quality control in Triumphland and the organisation was driven by cost saving. I've seen the result of crank and camshafts from that period where they "missed" the hardening process and the jokes aboutV8 Triumph Stags being delivered with only 7 pistons fitted havea basis in fact.</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Going back to the need for power, you shouldn't need it to get up the boatramp, the original 1147 is more than adequate and will take the car up a 45 degree slipway. I've certainly driven up ramps so steep that you can't see over the bonnet/hood. Where the 1300 really wins and the reason I'm going that route is driving up steep hills (grades) on ordinary roads - especially when there are four in the car. As my kids get older there is about an extra 20Kg of weight to move each year and on one hill near me I now need to drop to second gear. Changing down to third is OK but second is painful and you end up reving the nuts off the engine. The 1300 completely fixes that problem. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">David C</font>

 

[David Chapman]

Re: Re: 1500cc Triumph & cooling

<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor="#ffffff">
<font face="Arial" size="2">Johns comments are all good. The difference in smoothness is really only noticable between 1300 and 1500. You can't bore out an 1147 (the piston spacing was changed) to make it 1300 (actually 1296cc). The larger crank was more about cost saving than durability - logic says it should be better but not always the case. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">The large crank was made from about 1970 to the endin 1978. This was a dire time for quality control in Triumphland and the organisation was driven by cost saving. I've seen the result of crank and camshafts from that period where they "missed" the hardening process and the jokes aboutV8 Triumph Stags being delivered with only 7 pistons fitted havea basis in fact.</font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">Going back to the need for power, you shouldn't need it to get up the boatramp, the original 1147 is more than adequate and will take the car up a 45 degree slipway. I've certainly driven up ramps so steep that you can't see over the bonnet/hood. Where the 1300 really wins and the reason I'm going that route is driving up steep hills (grades) on ordinary roads - especially when there are four in the car. As my kids get older there is about an extra 20Kg of weight to move each year and on one hill near me I now need to drop to second gear. Changing down to third is OK but second is painful and you end up reving the nuts off the engine. The 1300 completely fixes that problem. </font>
<font face="Arial" size="2"></font>
<font face="Arial" size="2">David C</font>

 

[WB6WSN]

<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<blockquote style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">From: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of glennyrosa
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:25 AM
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] 1500cc Triumph & cooling<span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#ff0000" size="4"></font></span></font>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span></font>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span></font>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><font face="Arial" size="2">My last post of the desire of more hp led me to the Amphicar
website. I had read where the 1500 Spitfire engine would bolt right
in. Further investigation indicates that the 1500 has a cooling
problem. Right now my temp stays pretty much in the center except
when pulling long hills or asking for too much power on the water
which converts gas to noise with no speed increase. I guess that
I'm pretty lucky in that respect when it comes to cooling from
listening to the whoas of others with serious problems in that
area. We have had triple digit temps in the NW this summer and the
thought of adding an electric cooling fan has never crossed my
mind. Whose to say that my temp gage or sending unit isn't fubar.
I could be sailing in bliss whilst I burn up my motor.

It sounds as if I should leave well enough alone and to avoid steep
ramps. I would be interested in hearing from others who have or
have tried the Spitfire engine. My experience with putting larger
engines in airplanes has led mostly to disappointment. Either the
performance improvement was too little gain for the expense, or the
flight characteristics went from good to something of a lesser
value. Not always. But mostly.

One thought: I have never driven my Amphi with the top up. Could
the top create a boundry layer or a reverse flow of turulent air
that inhibits the intake of cooling air? I could vision a dead area
over the loovers where there would be no ram air effect in cruise.
It would be like running your car with a load on the engine but not
moving. Anyone remember riding in the back of a pickup truck and
finding that one spot where the wind doesn't blow at all? Just a
thought.

glenn</font></font></span></font>
<span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#ff0000" size="4"></font></span>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Glenn:</font></span>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Let me address a few points:</font></span>

1. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Don't get hung up on horsepower. You could double the horsepower, and still not see any appreciable change in water performance. (OK, lower mileage, more noise, more heat and a more foamy wake.) Hydrodynamics is cruel for a hull shaped like a brick.</font></span>
2. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Even if you had more horsepower, could you couple it into useful thrust? If you had more horsepower, then you would need larger diameter or steeper pitch propellers. The original props are matched pretty well already to coupling the OEM torque to thrust.</font></span>
3. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">The Amphi is geared very high in first gear, so high that some people don't use it for street driving. You should be able to crawl up a ramp that truly frightens you. Tire traction is more of a factor than slope.</font></span>
4. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">For land, more horsepower is nice. OTOH, upgrading the engine then suggests that you will need to upgrade the clutch, transmission bearings, differential andU-joints. Vehicle design is a systems problem; interacting sub-systems are all built not much better than they have to be. With a hotter engine, you are now working all of the rest of the drive train parts much harder. That means quicker wear and lower safety margins.</font></span>
5. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">My prejudice is that I would rather have a smooth and reliable vehicle than to get an extra 10 MPH out of the top end.</font></span>
6. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">I have always felt that air circulation is backwards on the Amphi. The outer louvers should face forward, to scoop air into the engine compartment. Then, the fan should push the air out past the radiator and have the air exit at the center, rear-facing louvers. Better aerodynamics, plus the engine fan would put a suction on the bilge, instead of a pressure as it now does. This is safer from a fumes standpoint, plus you wouldn't get the engine odor and hot air out of the shifter lever holes. All very reasonable, until you think about how those forward-facing outer louvers would also scoop up water from a wave. Oops, maybe rear-facing does have some value! <g></font></span>
7. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Water cruising is when you need the most cooling. You are putting out continuous horsepower while moving very slowly, so there is maximum heat to shed and almost no ram air effect.</font></span>

<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006">
<div align="left"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Ed Price</font>
<div align="left"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">El Cajon, CA USA</font>
<div align="left"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">67 Rust Guppy</font>
<div align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="4"></font><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#ff0000" size="4"></font></span></blockquote>

 

[WB6WSN]

<table style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<blockquote style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">From: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of glennyrosa
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:25 AM
To: amphicar-lovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [amphicar-lovers] 1500cc Triumph & cooling<span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#ff0000" size="4"></font></span></font>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span></font>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span></font>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><font face="Arial" size="2">My last post of the desire of more hp led me to the Amphicar
website. I had read where the 1500 Spitfire engine would bolt right
in. Further investigation indicates that the 1500 has a cooling
problem. Right now my temp stays pretty much in the center except
when pulling long hills or asking for too much power on the water
which converts gas to noise with no speed increase. I guess that
I'm pretty lucky in that respect when it comes to cooling from
listening to the whoas of others with serious problems in that
area. We have had triple digit temps in the NW this summer and the
thought of adding an electric cooling fan has never crossed my
mind. Whose to say that my temp gage or sending unit isn't fubar.
I could be sailing in bliss whilst I burn up my motor.

It sounds as if I should leave well enough alone and to avoid steep
ramps. I would be interested in hearing from others who have or
have tried the Spitfire engine. My experience with putting larger
engines in airplanes has led mostly to disappointment. Either the
performance improvement was too little gain for the expense, or the
flight characteristics went from good to something of a lesser
value. Not always. But mostly.

One thought: I have never driven my Amphi with the top up. Could
the top create a boundry layer or a reverse flow of turulent air
that inhibits the intake of cooling air? I could vision a dead area
over the loovers where there would be no ram air effect in cruise.
It would be like running your car with a load on the engine but not
moving. Anyone remember riding in the back of a pickup truck and
finding that one spot where the wind doesn't blow at all? Just a
thought.

glenn</font></font></span></font>
<span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#ff0000" size="4"></font></span>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Glenn:</font></span>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Let me address a few points:</font></span>

1. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Don't get hung up on horsepower. You could double the horsepower, and still not see any appreciable change in water performance. (OK, lower mileage, more noise, more heat and a more foamy wake.) Hydrodynamics is cruel for a hull shaped like a brick.</font></span>
2. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Even if you had more horsepower, could you couple it into useful thrust? If you had more horsepower, then you would need larger diameter or steeper pitch propellers. The original props are matched pretty well already to coupling the OEM torque to thrust.</font></span>
3. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">The Amphi is geared very high in first gear, so high that some people don't use it for street driving. You should be able to crawl up a ramp that truly frightens you. Tire traction is more of a factor than slope.</font></span>
4. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">For land, more horsepower is nice. OTOH, upgrading the engine then suggests that you will need to upgrade the clutch, transmission bearings, differential andU-joints. Vehicle design is a systems problem; interacting sub-systems are all built not much better than they have to be. With a hotter engine, you are now working all of the rest of the drive train parts much harder. That means quicker wear and lower safety margins.</font></span>
5. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"></span><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">My prejudice is that I would rather have a smooth and reliable vehicle than to get an extra 10 MPH out of the top end.</font></span>
6. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">I have always felt that air circulation is backwards on the Amphi. The outer louvers should face forward, to scoop air into the engine compartment. Then, the fan should push the air out past the radiator and have the air exit at the center, rear-facing louvers. Better aerodynamics, plus the engine fan would put a suction on the bilge, instead of a pressure as it now does. This is safer from a fumes standpoint, plus you wouldn't get the engine odor and hot air out of the shifter lever holes. All very reasonable, until you think about how those forward-facing outer louvers would also scoop up water from a wave. Oops, maybe rear-facing does have some value! <g></font></span>
7. 
   <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Water cruising is when you need the most cooling. You are putting out continuous horsepower while moving very slowly, so there is maximum heat to shed and almost no ram air effect.</font></span>

<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="781425510-29092006">
<div align="left"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">Ed Price</font>
<div align="left"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">El Cajon, CA USA</font>
<div align="left"><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#0000ff" size="4">67 Rust Guppy</font>
<div align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="4"></font><font face="Century Schoolbook" color="#ff0000" size="4"></font></span></blockquote>